I think if people knew the mad, bonkers roots of strict routine-based parenting they would run a mile instead of buying more books about it.

[pruners]

Message withdrawn

'breastfed on demand (not nec by the mother).'

and that is why AP won't work for 95% of parents in this country. We're on our own. No one will even hold our baby for us for 10 minutes let alone breastfeed it

As to cultures where babies don't cry- what happens at night? When the poor mother has to lie down?

I have never got the argument that women are supposed to sleep properly with an infant attached to the boob all night- although I do know some AP parents who seem to do it. One I met recently, a lovely woman, spends the whole evening in her bedroom with her 2yo dd getting her to sleep on the boob and then is feeding on demand in the night. I couldn't do that and I'm sure I am in the majority of (Western) women saying that???

Co-sleeping never worked for ds1. I did (for one terrible week!) try the 24 hour body contact thing but he wanted constant movement. Who is going to stay up all night walking around? A saint or martyr? I am none of those things. Plus I frankly doubt that immediate gratification of all the may irritants that affect babies is the be all and end all of life. Relief of hunger, yes. But relief of tiredness and boredom or just5 plain crying-for-absolutely-no-bloody-reason is something else entirely and it is up to parents to decide how they deal with that surely? If only to preserve their own sanity, which is surely as important as the baby's (or have I made a terrible childhating statement there???)

You haven't said anything terrible there allegrageller - not by MN standards anyway Many would agree with you. But I don't. I am just like the women you mention. I used to do just that with all 3 of mine. It never occurred to me to do otherwise. I was out at work all day and it meant the evenings and nights were totally given over to my DCs. Not a problem. But probably the reason why I look so haggard now

routines have evolved (including the bad mad and very ugly) around a societty that is industrialist - and not based on cluster families, and close parenting by both parents and extended families. As already said, we HAVE to be able to put our babies down, for many women, we have to be able to go to work, feed our children at set times etc.

I too could not have coped with AP - but what I resent is the implication that by NOT following AP, I d not have secure attachments with my children. Clearly by following a routine, and not co-sleeping (I would be a basket case by now had we co-slept, I think it is a terrible thing to do) my children will not have secure attahcments - becuase attahcment parenting requires different thigns.

Our society requires us, at various ages to fall in with certain routines and rules. I believe that by intorducing somje of those routines earlier, like sleeping at ngiht not haphazardly though whenever, and sleeping in one's own bed etc that we can avoid some of the problems later, like children who sleep in your bed til they are 5, 6, 7. A this age they need their own un interupted sleep, and parents need space. How many threads do we see saying "oh my god, I've got to get my child out of our bed"? How many do we see saying "oh no, my baby sleeps through the night, how terrible" ?
I don't advocate mad bad and ugly routines, but if introduced carefully, and gently I really think you can avoid then having to wrench away a child out of a parental bed at a later date.

I didn't have to wrench any of my DCs out of my bed. They went happily when they were ready. DS#2 now refuses to come into my bed for a story even because he wants to be in his own bed.

touche.

My girl too. Hates being in my bed. Different routes to teh same outcome - happy, relaxed child happy to be separate from parent and happy to be together.

perhaps the bed wrenching wasn't the best example - but do you see my point? Masses of threads are devoted to "why is my baby up half the night" "why can't I get any sleep". Some will, I know, argue that this is just what babies do... I would argue something different.

Yes. I see your point sagpuss. Was just slightly bridling at the use of the word 'wrench'

M&J - I think you have there - differnt apporaches, same outcome. AP, or any version would not work for me, routines do/ did. I don't like co-sleepng, but if a friend were doing it, it is up to them. I like my midnight snuggles when DD insists on a night feed, but I also relish putting her back in her cot and snuggling back with my DH.

also, while we are on the topic of separation from parent, anyone care to advise me on this

Not experienced this before so just wondering. And I can't even turn up to the event super early to get us both used to it. Have organised myself an absolutely daft weekend

margoandjerry, have you read anything by Sarah Blaffer Hrdy? Very eminent feminist biological anthropologist. Fantastic writer She makes short work of conservative, reactionary notions about man the hunter and monogamous women, and so on. Still concludes that human babies need to be held and responded to though.

I'm expecting my first baby in 8 weeks and am finding the debate about AP/routine etc. absolutely fascinating, and yes, a little scary.
I've chosen, at this stage, to not co-sleep, because of certain personal risk factors. I'm very large and hubby sweats profusely in the night, so I think the risks are too great. Baby will be sleeping in our room however, very close to me in a moses basket and then cot when he's bigger. I would love to have him in a sling all the time, but I don't expect this to be very comfortable (big boobs/short arms), or necessarily practical all the time, so we've bought a pram. However I will be making a sling for those times, it they occur, when it's the only thing to settle him. I'm planning to breastfeed, on demand and cuddle him most of the time when he's small.
All these are very personal decisions and are subject to change.
I think that's the key, as if you're struggling with AP then it is a restrictive routine. No one philosophy or book is going to be applicable to all parents or babies, that doesn't mean we should dismiss them all, but by reading everything and understanding where these philosophies come from can help us to make our own decisions. Then the baby will tell us what to do.

xx

" if you are struggling with AP then it is a restricitive routine" - excellent post - just because AP does call itself a routine, and it does not follow "routine" times for feeding etc... it is STILL a routine, as it has rules you are supposed to follow.

Have read the op and skimmed. Fair points, but who came up with AP? I would guess a man was also involved there too? Apologies if this has already been covered...

correct nicky 2x

a man called John Bowlby, in the 50s. The research was also based on the very extreme separation experiences of orphaned children in institutional settings.

I thougth Bowlby came up with the theory of attachment BONDING, not AP? Might be wrong.

Thought that might be the case, allegra. Heaven forbid women should just do what they think is best and respond to their child as an individual, eh?!

exactly. I think as you gain more experience as a parent you relaise that they are all individuals, and you as the mother should follow your extinct and give them attention....
I have never followed a routine, I am just not like that, and we have worked out okay!!

yes ssp- but I thought that his theories were the basis of AP (along with all the cod-evolutionary theory and tribal 'wisdom'....)

He came up with the idea of constant care from one carer and of the idea of 'separation' from her as intensely psychologically dangerous.

My dd had severe, all-day colic and I turned to a routine in desperation. Strapping a colicky baby into a sling only calms them if you are out walking all day long or working outside with them strapped to your back. Not very practical.

AP made me feel just as much a failure as the 'routine' type books.

i'm right with you there annoyingdevil. I would say I felt more of a failure reading the AP books and talking to people who do it and assume there is no other way to parent 'properly'- with routine books you get the threat of a naughty little monster who will drive you mad with its unregulated demands. With the AP type books, you are the monster, depriving your poor child of the constant, unending attention it needs and deserves. And you run the risk of causing it every problem under the sun from allergies to schizophrenia.

Or you could ignore the books altogether and do what seems right. If you don't read any of the written wisdom of the experts you tend to just go with the flow and live in blissful ignorance that you are doing it all wrong.

Just before I had dd I had a sudden panic and got out three different parenting books from the library. I didn't get very far into any of them before thinking "Hang on, if the so called experts can't agree on how to do things I'll just do it my way".

For the most part, my way seems to have worked for us. DD only slept on my chest for the first 8 weeks or so but I kept trying her in her cot(cosleeping is not for me long term), and by 10 weeks she was happily going to sleep by herself. Unfortunately although dd has always gone to bed without complaint and settled herself to sleep, at 21 months she has still only slept through the night 4 or 5 times. Unless she is ill she'll only wake once though, and I figure she'll outgrow it eventually!

I always fed on demand, even when she went onto bottles but she had found a basic routine of her own by 3 months anyway. Funnily enough the feed/nap times in her own routine were quite similar to those in the GF routine (which I personally could never have implemented!)

I have tried to do the same with DS, I feed on demand,I let him sleep when he is tired, I have had to leave him to cry for a few minutes sometimes when I am dealing with dd, and he always cries in the car or pushchair (both of which he hates), although then I'm not technically leaving him to it, there's just not a lot I can do about it at that particular time! He is 12 weeks, and hasn't settled into any kind of routine at all by himself yet! His feeding is still completely random, as is his sleeping, the night before last we had a 7 hour stretch, last night he was up every 2 hours.

When I compared him to dd a few weeks ago and realised she was in a routine by then I briefly tried to follow the baby whisperer but just found it too stressful! I am actually much happier not worrying about when he should be doing certain things and just going with the flow but that's me, I apreciate that other mums will be happier following a routine, whether it be in the babywhisperer or GF mould.

One thing that does annoy me though, is that every single person I know who has successfully followed a strict routine is so damn smug about it and so adamant that their way is the only way. Yes GF might mean my baby sleeps through by 8 weeks or whatever, but that doesn't neccessarily mean I will be happy following it, or that my baby will. On top of which, getting my baby to sleep through just isn't the most important part of parenting to me (although I appreciate that we all need sleep!). I can appreciate that different parents need to do things differently so why can't they? TBH I think if you manage to follow it successfully then it was suited to you in the first place, not that it will always work for everyone.

Ormorian, I think that is absolutely right, in principle, but lots of women and men have great difficulty in "going with their instincts", mainly because the society we live in is so far removed from natural instincts in many ways, and we have become separated from traditional ways and instictive reactions by our upbringing and our culture

quite true. I had no instincts, other than to stop ds1 crying, and I couldn't do that whatever I did.

Then later on I had an instinct to have a rest and get some time for myself, but I didn't get very far with that one, because i wasn't supposed to have it...