3 year old takes two hours to go to bed - at wits end

[Monkeyportrait]

Hello there. I know there are several threads of this nature but please forgive me starting another, as I'm at my wits' end. Our DD is 3.5 and for six months has refused to stay in bed at bedtime, coming downstairs, first cheery then getting progressively more and more hysterical if I don't lie on her bed with her to get her to sleep - a process which itself takes 1.45 hours as she is so hyper and just wants to play. I feel her getting wound up and playful then anxious at bedtime - its like her body changes.

Because lying on the bed to get her to sleep takes SO long we have decided after six months to try and get her back to where she used to be, ie going to sleep when we leave the room and pop in a couple of times (she did this solidly for about a year). I don't know where it all went wrong but I presume it was just a developmental change.

It's causing so much stress in the house. We don't get to eat dinner any more as one of us is always going up and down stairs. We fight about it and go to bed in a bad mood. We are exhausted and have no time to ourselves at all. We can't go out for dinner ever now, because we wouldn't be able to leave the house till 9pm.

She only wants me - because I do the lying on the bed - and DP and me are fighting like mad because he says my approach has caused the problem in the first place.

We have tried audiobooks - she just listens to the end and wants another. We have tried books - she reads them and then comes down to see us. We have tried changing bedtimes around - she takes two hours from whenever we start.

Life has just receded into the distance to be honest! Any advice would be beyond appreciated.

Oh and make sure she has enough sunlight and activity in the day.

2 hours for wind down!! That's mad. Upstairs, pyjamas, bath if she has one, teeth, one or two books, say good night and leave. She can read on her own or listen to audiobooks, but must stay in her room/bed. Get a stairgate/shut the door

well I think the point the OP is making is this doesn’t work for her child? And she comes downstairs? If it was that simple, I’m sure she would have done it…

@Laguera - that link says 10-13hrs for 3-5 year old. It only recommends a bed time of 7-30-8.30pm. A child going to bed at 9pm and waking 7am is still having 10hrs. If they go at 7pm and only sleep 10hrs they will be awake at 5am

I'd set a strong routine and start it with a short walk at about 6.30. Even in the dark or the rain, the dark will help recognise night time, get the body clock working. Have lights dimmed and TV off when you get back. Have a little snack and cuddle on couch. Then up for a bath and then story, kiss, hug and sleep.

If you need to start the routine a bit later and then each night move it back by 10 mins each week to get it back to ideal time.

You are the weak link, as mammies often are as we are their safe person. So for 1 week leave the house and let daddy do bedtime to set the routine. Then mammy and daddy do it together, then just mammy.

We had periods of staying in DD1's room so she could go back to sleep, but in the middle of the night which was even worse.

This was when she was about 4 or 5. Anxious about school (was also doing things like coming home with sore hands as the teacher said she had to wash her hands, and told them about germs, and she was so worried about germs that she was washing her hands too much and not drying them properly at school) anxious about lots of things - she is and was very bright and imaginative but did not then have the maturity to put things into context. Perhaps insecure in her attachment to me because of her little sister taking up my time and attention (DD2 was 1 then). They both had a lovely (and quite long enough as it was!) bedtime routine - baths, stories etc.

We were at our wits end getting up in the night - not with baby DD2 who slept like a dream but with her big sister! We worked through two books with her (there are lots of activities for the child to do - drawing and so on)- What to do When You Dread Your Bed and What to Do When You Worry Too Much.

Similar to some of the techniques mentioned here, there was a sort of staged withdrawal thing where DD1 would get two "call back tokens" - we made actual paper tokens - On the first night she used both, we went back into the room twice. Second, one. Third, one. After that - none, and she was much less anxious, more settled- there was also a reward for not using any tokens, not using any for a few days- etc. This can be linked to a reward chart. DD1 is very rule-following/reward-focused so it worked very well with her.

No advice but I’ve been there and still am!

With my eldest I really wanted him settled before youngest arrived (he was 3 10 months). I used gradual retreat and a star chart, he’s really good now at 5 and reads to himself before lights out.

2year old is an hour with me no matter what time I take her up or if she’s napped early/late/not at all. And insists on me! I wouldn’t put a gate up or leave her to cry as she gets hysterical to gagging. It’s so hard but we are viewing it as a phase and she’s still little (just2).

We also have a DC3 who only sleeps for 9-10 hrs. In our house we start bedtime at 5.30. Dinner at 5, a short play downstairs after then take him upstairs for 5.30. Bath/lots of books/calm play/clean teeth and then lights off by 6.30 ish and asleep around 7-7.30 (Me or DH stay with him until he’s asleep - working on getting him to fall asleep by himself)

If we started bedtime any later he’d 100% be awake for longer! He gets up very very early (4.30-5am) so I guess we’re in a similar position to you just switched late nights for early mornings.

You could try waking her at 6am and start bedtime 1hr earlier?

Had the same issue with my partners 3.5 year old recently - centred around taking the dummy away at night time. Was more difficult for us as we only had once a week overnight and nothing was being done the other 6 nights a week at home.

We tried the supper nanny technique. Out to bed once say good night spend a bit of time doing this. 1st time comes out of bed, take back to bed and say it’s bed time and tuck back in and say good night. 2nd time just say it’s bed time and walk back to bed. Any time there after just take back to bed and say nothing and repeat till they stay there. It takes time and patience but even doing this one night a week it only took a month. Now even if she’s not sleeping will lie in bed till she falls asleep.

Does this 3.5 year old go to nursery by any chance? We had a similar situation with our child who was 2.5 years, turns out they’d been letting them sleep from 1:30pm-4:30pm. Meaning they weren’t remotely tired at 7pm. Once we’d addressed that and instructed them to wake them after an hours lunchtime nap, they were receptive to bedtime at 7ish. Good luck!

If she doesn't nap at all at 3, it might actually be that you are starting too late and she is overtired.
At that age, my 2 were both non nappers and bedtime routine started at 6:15, bathtime & story, I would lay and sing 3 songs and lights out at 7:15pm.
Around 3 and a half my eldest really started struggling going to sleep on his own (I always struggled with this as a kid too & it was horrid) so I started laying with him, stroking his back and singing to him til he fell asleep. Once he knew I would stay til he was asleep, he stopped fighting sleep and I still do it now he is 6, almost never takes more than 30mins and always out by 8pm. So the night is mine
Since that started I have been diagnosed with ADHD and he is also under observation for it too, for which sleep problems are a big thing.
Yes, kids will play you for more time and attention if they can get it, but sometimes they just need you to help them. No part of me regrets laying with my kids for 30mins everynight for a stress free evening and my daughter will still fall asleep on her own for a babysitter, despite me laying with them nearly every night since she was 2. (Son is hit & miss)
Go with your gut, if you think she is just playing around, you have to be firmer, but I would suspect she is over tired rather than not tired enough and try and earlier bedtime and telling her yo7 will lay with her until she is asleep- on the condition she is laying down and quiet. (If mine mess around they go into their own beds - rather than both in my daughter's double - and no songs from mummy!)

You say it's been 6 months since she starting having trouble at bedtime. Maybe it's since the daylight hours have been longer than the darkness hours - since Spring equinox?

I predict that as the evenings get darker earlier it will get easier. Autumn Equinox on Sept 23rd xx

Both my boys were tricky to get off to sleep. My recommendations would be,

Get the room as dark as possible - minimal night light, blackout curtains etc
Sleep spray on the pillows
When you lie next to her make loud slow breathing noises like your sound asleep and snoring (sounds weird I know but really works!). Have a cut off before this of chatting and asking questions - ie one more question then lets get some sleep - then do your best to act really sound asleep while trying to not actually go to sleep 😁

Bath, teeth, pyjamas, story, kiss and hug, lights out. Any attempts to get out of bed, take her back with no eye contact. Repeat repeat repeat. Kids are clever, she will get it.

easier said than done - but n o more coming back down and when you go up no more chat and you need to be in control of the situation - don't do what she says - so if she wants you on the bed with her say no - mummy is going to sit over here instead, no more talking now time to go asleep

and work up to getting closer and closer to the door and leaving the room

How is she getting downstairs? could you put a baby gate up - maybe a baby gate on her bedroom door so she can't get out

Is she getting time to chat to you about what's on her mind in the day? Could you have a timer set for 10 mins for a chat and then after that it's quiet sleeping time, so if there's anything actually on her mind she can tell you and you then don't feel guilty about insisting she goes back to bed?

I probably wouldn't be winding down a toddler before bed.
There nervous system has been pushed all day and they have had to limit the amount of opportunities they have in climbing and free play to fit round family life etc.
I would suggest an indoor bicycle or a soft ball that they can interact with you for at least an hour kicking, cycling laughing and off loading their day onto you.
If you can get them doing manual tasks around the home like folding washing or washing up, it helps them feel part of the family. Aim for 10.30 and all go to bed at the same time for a few weeks.

Thanks again everyone - I'm still digesting and reading and thinking, overwhelmed by the help and ideas!

I do find it very hard to be stern and blank / ignore her when she wants to talk; and she is very agile so it's almost physically impossible to take her back to bed unless you're engaged and tempting her with something nice each time, like another cuddle or something.

I'm interested in this idea that maybe she is just getting enough sleep - argh. Because yes, it's ten hours...

But I do find she gets cumulatively more and more grey and knackered as the week goes on and often falls asleep totally randomly with me or DP on her days off, seemingly after days of staving off sleep before.

Reading these messages again in detail with DP tonight - after 9.30 of course...

I have a 3.5 year old who recently went through a ‘lie with me stage’ but she just wanted to play! I told her if she didn’t lie down quietly I was leaving, which I did! I’ve recently stopped it all together though as it was getting silly.
She use to go to bed at 7 but we recently decided that’s too early so it’s 7:30-8 ish now, works better.
She also goes to nursery full time. She went through her stage when her sister was born 6 months ago.
We bought her a star projector for her room and she has a tonie box.
So brush teeth, pjs, read a max of 2 stories with her projector on. Then she picks a tonie, then we put on her sleepy lamb tonie, which in her words ‘makes her feel tired’ 🤣

Whats her evening routine? We did "active"play after tea- partly enforced as when ds2 was little -i had 2 dogs so walk was required, dark nights might not be ideal for that- dancing -post dinner was always popular(two stepping cowboy-ANY sorta you tube -catchy routine/song) then bath, supper,teeth clean ,bed. story.kiss-over. Even just a dip in,dip out was required to stick to the routine...also-as shes into the audio book thing.You tube will give you loads of age appropriate-childrens bedtime sleep hypnosis/meditation stories which might be worth a go.

It’s quite a shock to the system when they start to push back on a previously stress free bed time routine. From about 21 months until 4 our daughter was a nightmare. I never thought I’d be outsmarted by a toddler, but I was!

Firstly, we realised her sleep needs had changed - she simply didn’t need to go to bed as early, so first thing we did was push her bed time back. Secondly, we framed that “as a treat”, we’d get her bathed & ready for bed and then if she was good, let her come back downstairs with my husband / I for a few mins on the condition she didn’t mess around when we put her to bed. It worked! She’s now 4.5 and whilst we haven’t gained a great dealing of our evening back (she probably doesn’t go to sleep til 8/8.15pm) but it’s SO much less stressful. We were really strict with the amount of time we let her downstairs and use a timer so she knows that after two timers, it’s upstairs, two books and then bed

Also don’t listen to anyone who makes you feel like there is a perfect time for bed. Some people have their kids bathed and asleep by 7pm (how?) but that’s the minority. Most people are a bit later and that’s completely fine. And once they start school we my eldest just has, they’re so shattered they almost fall straight to sleep anyway! Be strict with boundaries and remember, “this too shall pass”

I'd recommend you still have your turn doing bedtimes, just being with the baby and having dad only do bedtime would be a massive change for her, she's going to want her mum too

Have you tried applying sleep pressure by widening their wake windows?

Example: wake them up a little earlier. Move nap up a little earlier and shorten nap. Always make sure the last wake window is the longest ect.

I personally think she’s old enough to understand that bed time means bed time she will be starting school next year.
I would be strict in following a routine tea, bath, teeth, book x 2, hugs and kisses good night. No talking. She gets out you put her back to bed and be consistent. She will soon understand.
Obviously it’s different if she’s unwell. I would push bed time to 7.30 and start bath time at around 6.30 so enough time to wind down. The darker nights will hopefully help.

I always found being consistent was the key even when I wanted to give up, they all got there in the end and are much happier toddlers/kids after a restful sleep and I was a happier mum because I had some alone time/ time with my partner! Good luck 😊

@Mumto32022

Yes yes I very much agree with this. Whatever you try OP be consistent.

I highly recommend the huckleberry app. My husband and I recently run into a very similar problem with our two year old and we thought we were being consistent with her sleek schedule but we weren't. We checked her wake and nap times and realized we were letting her sleep in more and more and take longer and longer naps without realizing it. So the obvious conclusion is that she's not going to sleep at night because she is just frankly not tired! She's been waking up half an hour later and taking a longer nap too so of course she is struggling to sleep!

I second the kiss method with gradual increasing intervals. Works in 2 nights after years of battling with every other method under the sun. Amazing.