Siblings not getting along.

[ZoriaBoo]

Hello, I'm really struggling with my children & wondered if anybody has any suggestions or just some solidarity as I feel very alone with this.

They are 9 & 6 & argue constantly.

Days out are really difficult, I have a problem with my feet at the moment so we are using the bus & they argue about where to sit, who's turn it is to sit on the edge, who will sit by themselves, who is allowed to sing, who is allowed to whistle, who is allowed to play driving, who is allowed to look out of the window, who is allowed to have a teddy on the seat, the other one is looking at them, who's turn it is to press the bell, & it just goes on.

They both shout & if I leave them to it then they literally end up screaming in each others faces then the older one wants his space & the younger one is crying & they are both still SCREAMING about what the other one did.

Everywhere we go they are like this. In shops, cinema, museum, swimming, parks are really bad because the older one in particular, really likes to play with the younger one but they can't agree on what/how to play.

I have support workers etc involved as my oldest is awaiting a ND assessment but they just suggest things like separate them & say we all spend too much time together. I've done every parenting course that's available & we did a family therapy group but they'd behave lovely in there & before we even left the building they'd be arguing.

We can't really have time apart as they don't see their dad much but I take them separately for days out etc every now & then when he is willing to help with the other one but day to day, when theres just me, if we spend too much time together then what am I supposed to do?

I've taken things away, they've lost days out, lost TV etc but none of that makes the slightest difference.

If I try to speak to people in RL they say all siblings bicker, which I know, or they wouldn't let their kids behave like that.

I don't want my kids to behave like this, I feel very isolated. We can't stay in all the time as they both do better when they've been out burning off energy & at home it's just the same as wherever one plays, the other wants to be or it's constant 'Hes looking at me/making faces at me/I can't hear him singing/I wanted to play with that' etc.

I do one playing upstairs & one downstairs etc but it's just not working & I don't want them to never be able to be near each other either!

I feel like an absolute failure tbh. I feel utterly useless & that I've raised nasty, spoiled children but I just don't know how to fix it.

So reading that back I can see it's a wall of negativity. It's not all bad. We do have nice times but they are getting fewer & fewer tbh.

One of our favourite things to do is sitting in the garden with a blanket/on the sofa/on my bed on a weekend morning & read some books together. I loved this time. Lately though, they argue over who has chosen the books, the order of the books, who has the most blanket/the best blanket/one of them is looking at the other/making a noise/taking up the most space etc & again it just leads to them screaming at each other & crying so we barely do that now.

I have the garden door open as soon as it's not freezing just so that we all have some more 'space', the garden is big enough for them to have a section each apart, but it's not massive, & the same problems occur.

We have daily schedules up with now & next etc given to us by the support worker & they also argue about who is going to stick the stickers on there/who is going to mark the day on the calendar etc.

They are lovely children they just can't seem to be together at all & it's getting me down.

I remember arguing with my sibling over sitting together etc but the arguements would just end, they wouldn't resort to us screaming & crying Every. Single. Time. And I also remember lovely times. I worry that my 2 won't have any happy memories.

My mum recently came to see us (very rare) & she said 'They just argue constantly don't they? You used to have your times like that, sure, but it wasn't constant like this'.

I really feel for you.
Are they both boys?

My 2 were much closer in age and used to argue a lot, often ending in physical fighting.

I think part of the problem is that they are both looking for your attention but as you don’t have much support it is difficult, and frankly exhausting for you.

Have you tried taking as many choices away from them as possible? So, you choose where they sit on the bus, you choose the books, you put the stickers on the chart etc etc. They are old enough to understand why it is happening. It is really hard work to be thinking ahead all the time to manage the situations though.

Coukd they spend time apart at separate friends’ houses or at clubs?

If I had a foolproof solution to make mine stop arguing I would have written a book and would be a millionaire now!

I have boys who are fairly close in age. They have always fought a lot but also been close to each other. They’re teenagers now and still drive each other mad but also do hang out sometimes. It’s just been awful at times - you have my sympathy. I don’t think there’s a magic answer - more about trying to survive- but some of the strategies in the book ‘Siblings without Rivalry’ helped.

MagpiePi Thank you for answering.
lilyfire Thank you too, I will have a look at that book.

Younger one is a girl but I've always said that there's no difference in their temperament, they are exactly the same!
Although she ends up crying out of frustration I think whereas he ends up crying as he's genuinely upset, he has big feelings about everything & stuff like, he will call her a 'Chicken head' & think it's hilarious, then she will say 'You are a chicken bum then' & he cries saying hers is worse.

She's louder than him recently too although I imagine that's because she doesn't feel heard. She instantly goes to shouting much faster than he does.

He sometimes resorts to shoving her or she will throw a book down in a temper eg & he will scream that it hit his foot & he will shove her across the room.

I do tell them (every time) that violence is not happening, that's not the way to respond when we are cross. But it's not heard.

I do give them as few choices as possible, yes. Before we get on a bus I say this is where we are sitting etc but it just doesn't work. They will start arguing about 'Last time he sat there so it's not fair' or 'He looked at me' or 'Last time he didn't let me look out the window so I should be allowed this time'. Etc. (They do the whole 'Last time'... A lot)

I've got off the bus & we've walked before but they just carry on fighting & arguing the whole walk home. Generally I ignore them on the bus until I snap & tell them to both stop it. But they carry on. Or I'll do the whole 'If you don't stop then (whatever)' & I always stick to it but it makes no difference.

Play dates don't really happen as my son is very anxious about leaving me but they do clubs separately as much as possible.

Thank you for the solidarity, it's nice to know there's somebody out there who understands!

Me and my sister were like this. We both simply disliked each other. What did not work was our parents constantly insisting that we depend most of the day stuck together. We were simply better off apart. Is there anyway in some days you can go out with one and someone else the other. Takes some of the pressure of them and you,I still very much dislike my sister and she me!

Or sign each up to a different club at least once a week so you mmmm they are separate. It can be very claustrophobic on the dc being forced to spend time with each other when they are not getting on.

Know not mmm?!

Thanks for sharing that specspec. Sometimes they cuddle up & seem to really love each other, they can be really considerate to each other, if one of them has fallen over or something, the other comes running over with a teddy & gives them a cuddle. They also run along holding hands etc, it just seems to tip over into arguing in a split second.

They do separate after school clubs once a week.

Every other Friday tea time until early Sunday they are with their dad & he either takes them out with his GF & they separate off (one takes each)... OR he stays home with them & spends the whole time txt me telling me how they are arguing.

(In the holidays just gone, he only had them one afternoon-over-night though hence me being a bit frazzled!)

There's nobody else to take one for me. My mum came on a day out with us last 6 week holidays, after I got upset saying how difficult I'm finding it with the 2 of them, but she spent the day sat down so one had to either sit with her while I took turns with the other doing something or they both wanted to come while she just sat there (& they ended up arguing like usual)... Not slating my mum though it's just how it is. I appreciated her coming.

My eldest one always wants to play with the younger one. She is happy to find somebody to play with at the park eg but he isn't able to do that, if he isn't playing with her then he doesn't play with anybody & then he keeps coming to me upset that she won't play with him. So it's not that I'm forcing them to spend time together. I walk around with him trying to find him somebody but unless the kid actually comes up to him & says 'Will you play with me', then he doesn't.

Oh god are you me? I have 2 DS 7 and 4 and they are like this a lot! One thing I have found that really helps is I say 'if you can't agree then I will choose' so whatever it is I tell them whose turn it is or I just do the stickers etc. We have set times when one gets to do things e.g Toothbrush timer - little one does bedtime big one does morning. No exceptions and no arguments. I've had some success recently with a pom pom jar - they get a pom pom when I notice good teamwork or nice playing together or being kind to each other, and when they get 10 they get a prize. Pom poms get taken out for fighting. Another thing I've done is banned YouTube. Unrelated issues but I have found a massive improvement in overall behaviour since that.

Thank you whoami I'm sorry you are struggling too! It's so difficult isn't it.

I do make the decisions with things but they still argue about one of them looking at the other/making a noise/who is going to do it next time etc. Then I'll say 'Next time I'm choosing too' & they will start arguing about who's 'fault' it is that I'm now choosing.

I feel like I tell them this is what's happening & they just find anything else to argue about.
We have on the schedule who's turn it is to do whatever but it's more playtimes & times when we go out tbh.

One of the school mums once told me to refuse to take them out until they stop the behaviour but that's really not fair on any of us. They both end up even more furious than usual as they are so full of energy.

They really don't watch YouTube but I'm glad that's worked for you!

Sometimes stickers work but they just lose interest tbh. They get treats when they work well together/are nice to each other but with the charts & things it's like even if they know there will be a reward at the end, they just lose interest.

Daily ones work better than weekly ones like 'If we can get on a bus today without an argument then you can have some sweets' but 90% of the time it's like they just can't help it. They are only happy around each other if they are moaning at each other.

yesterday the older one did the hoovering then the younger one wanted a go & the older one was going around with her going 'Dont do it like that/that's wrong/let me show you' etc. To the point where I got him to sit upstairs. Then as soon as she's finished hoovering he's shouting at her that she did it wrong & they are stood there screaming in each others faces again.

I do praise them for every little thing all the time to make sure that it's not all negativity coming from me!

sounds like my 2 basically exactly the same and similar age too one just turned 9 and one is turning 6 next month, they are boy and girl (it’s not just boys that argue 😌) it’s relentless that describes them completely, the 9 year old now refuses to sit next to the 5 year old on the bus which makes her cry it’s just arguing constantly

Thank you MilkshakeEarthquake. I'm really glad I posted now, I was scared you were all going to say that I'm awful.

I'm sorry you are struggling too, you have my sympathy.

Mine are generally happy to sit with each other & that's what makes things so difficult!
I generally try to get one of them sitting alone & me sitting with one but that still doesn't work as they can make faces/noises/look at each other. I've literally sat sideways across the seat before to try & block their views of each other from across the aisle.

Sunday's are hard as it's one bus an hour & they are always full so we sit all 3 on the seat & I'm on the aisle so I'm only half on & they have some space (but you can imagine how badly that goes)
Or we will of had a good day so I'll say they can sit together but within seconds one of them has upset the other.

Good for you@ZoriaBoo for getting them to do housework! You can never start them too young!

I think you’re right in having quite short lived star chart type things, and I agree with a PP about enforcing taking turns with things.

Have you tried to engage them in coming up with ways of doing things so that they don’t argue? Put the responsibility onto them if you can.

it is bloody exhausting though and I do feel for you.

Thank you MagpiePi My son is at this weird stage where he loves housework

I have tried that but neither of them can answer really, they say things like 'We won't annoy each other' & 'We won't moan about where we sit' but when it comes to it it's all 'Yeah but he (whatever)'

Or they say they will stay away from each other if we are home, but then all day it's 'We really want to play together, please let us, we will be good'... & Then all hell breaks lose.

I've banned them both from the bathroom with me as I get up 10 mins early on a school day to have a shower & I got so fed up with them both coming in then sat there screaming at each other at 6.30 in the morning.

We've also tried the holding up the go & stop signs so one person can speak & I take those out with us but again, once they've reached that annoyed with each other stage (which happens in 0.5 seconds) then they just scream over each other.

Thank you for all the suggestions though even though I probably seem like I'm saying no to them all!

What you're describing is my worst nightmare OP so I have huge sympathy for you. And I think you sound amazing. Really thoughtful and kind. Honestly what I would do in your situation is split them up every chance you get. Would your ex be up for separate visits?

I don't actually think you can fix this. I'm sure they will grow out of it. But until they do I would divide them
at every opportunity.

I don't really have any suggestions but I feel your pain as I have 3 and it seems at the minute all they do is argue!

13, 10 and 7. Boy, boy, girl.

Very different personalities and a lot from the youngest is attention seeking (but we can't always be giving her attention!).

I don't know what the answer is but I argued with my siblings and we get along fine as adults.

Definitely days out with friends with kids works and the eldest is now old enough to be sent to a friend's house alone.

Thank goodness school started again today!!

I meant to add my mother didn't do anything wrong imo whatsoever! It was just how we were, so absolute sympathy for you in this situation.

Thank you Pootlie. I hate thinking the grass is greener but I do get fed up when I see other kids getting along nicely & mine are screaming at each other for the 90th time that day. Or they've asked if we can go on a plane & I just said absolutely not a chance. Imagine how bad they'd be on there when there's no escape! (The threads would be on here moaning about this woman & her awfully behaved kids)

Their dad won't do separate visits as he only sees them the one day so he likes to see them both at the same time. I'm trying to think how we could separate on a day out & it's just hard isn't it. Like I've said, at the park I try & get them separate but it's like they gravitate towards each other! Or at soft play, I will send them off in separate directions & they just end up together (arguing!)

If one of them ever does engage in something on their own when we are out then I do grab the other one & think let's make the most of this time.

Thank you HangryFace. Solidarity to you!
Because of my son's suspected ND, we only see a couple of friends who's children are also ND, every now & then, but when we do, it's lovely. (He's being bullied at school so he has a small friendship group)

So it's more... If one day my kids happen to be ok & their kids happen to be ok then let's grab the opportunity!... Rather than it being planned.

Hello! Just bumping my own thread to see if there is any help out there!

Reading back through this & to put it simply, everything is exactly the same & then 100% worse.

Children are now 11 & 7.

Me and my twin brother grew out of this with puberty.
We physically fought before that and the growing strength meant we didn't fancy murdering someone.
We also started each doing our own thing and had outlets elsewhere, rather than fighting for a particular spot on the sofa.

Thank you QueenCamilla, I hope this happens!

If anything, my son (eldest) has become much more insistent on needing to play with the younger one all the time, but it sometimes kind of feels like he asks her to play something so that he can instantly scream at her & tell her that she's doing it wrong. Which makes her scream back & then he will whack her & she will cry & he will claim his innocence.

They both want things exactly their own way all of the time. They will both have an idea of how they want to play a game & neither will listen to the other for their ideas.

I try setting a timer so that they both have equal playing time & they both get to chose how to play the game during their turn (they both love using a timer for everything!)

But they still scream that the other is doing it wrong/not listening.

OP

It sounds like your daughter is getting victimised here. I understand your son is ND but that can't mean your daughter gets hit etc.
You need to make it very clear to him that she needs to be left alone , and remove him when he tries to play with her (given his aggression afterwards).
Practically you need to start putting them in camps, evening classes etc at opposite times so that they are together less. (And so your daughter gets some room to breathe.)

SeulementUneFois Yes they are in clubs on different days through the holidays.

I do make it clear to my son that it is absolutely not ok to hurt her.