Siblings not getting along.

[ZoriaBoo]

Hello, I'm really struggling with my children & wondered if anybody has any suggestions or just some solidarity as I feel very alone with this.

They are 9 & 6 & argue constantly.

Days out are really difficult, I have a problem with my feet at the moment so we are using the bus & they argue about where to sit, who's turn it is to sit on the edge, who will sit by themselves, who is allowed to sing, who is allowed to whistle, who is allowed to play driving, who is allowed to look out of the window, who is allowed to have a teddy on the seat, the other one is looking at them, who's turn it is to press the bell, & it just goes on.

They both shout & if I leave them to it then they literally end up screaming in each others faces then the older one wants his space & the younger one is crying & they are both still SCREAMING about what the other one did.

Everywhere we go they are like this. In shops, cinema, museum, swimming, parks are really bad because the older one in particular, really likes to play with the younger one but they can't agree on what/how to play.

I have support workers etc involved as my oldest is awaiting a ND assessment but they just suggest things like separate them & say we all spend too much time together. I've done every parenting course that's available & we did a family therapy group but they'd behave lovely in there & before we even left the building they'd be arguing.

We can't really have time apart as they don't see their dad much but I take them separately for days out etc every now & then when he is willing to help with the other one but day to day, when theres just me, if we spend too much time together then what am I supposed to do?

I've taken things away, they've lost days out, lost TV etc but none of that makes the slightest difference.

If I try to speak to people in RL they say all siblings bicker, which I know, or they wouldn't let their kids behave like that.

I don't want my kids to behave like this, I feel very isolated. We can't stay in all the time as they both do better when they've been out burning off energy & at home it's just the same as wherever one plays, the other wants to be or it's constant 'Hes looking at me/making faces at me/I can't hear him singing/I wanted to play with that' etc.

I do one playing upstairs & one downstairs etc but it's just not working & I don't want them to never be able to be near each other either!

I feel like an absolute failure tbh. I feel utterly useless & that I've raised nasty, spoiled children but I just don't know how to fix it.

You mentioned earlier in your thread that they love reading? My three argue all the time, about everything and anything but won't spend any time apart! (your description of a simple bus ride had me nodding my head 😂). But something miraculous has happened in the past week after signing them up to the library's summer reading challenge. As soon as they start reading they are quietly in their own world - the only time they leave each other be!

Have only read your first two posts, so apologies if I’m repeating what others have said.

My dc are ND, this is very common, so please don’t beat yourself up about it. My boys are 23 and 19 now and finally they get on well, but both have cars so can leave if it gets a bit hairy!

In the awful younger days they were exactly as you describe, relentless and wearing!

Im going to list some of the things I did to try to help (it wasn’t a magic wand but I did feel a bit more in control!).

If you have a day out planned try to write a list of what’s going to happen, take away any potential stress of the unknown. If both or one kick off go home, even if you all miss out. Explain nicely, not angrily, that it’s not safe to continue when they’re fighting, and go home. Nothing like a natural consequence for ND children!
Have a notebook and pen with you. I remember writing down whose turn it was for certain things, it helped to have a clear record. Also handy for impromptu noughts and crosses or hangman.

Divide and conquer whenever you can. Don’t expect any sharing at all or taking in turns.

Closely supervise any playing together. Do not ever get complacent that things will go smoothly. Subtly watch like a hawk and remove a child immediately if they kick off and take them to another room to do another activity.

Protect both from any potential victimisation. Plan as many things with just one (assuming they have a dad on the scene!).

Try something like Lego therapy with them. One person reads instructions out, one finds the right piece, one builds. Swap places every 5-10 minutes. It helps to build up negotiation skills. Use a coin toss to decide who does what job first (this can work with other activities, an external decision is easier to take than one decided by you or one of the children).

I feel like there’s more that I used to do. It’s been a few years since I’ve needed these kind of strategies!

Thank you mustbwfunny. I'm glad that it's working for you!

That does work to a point, but it's getting them both in sync... So we will come back from the library & the older one will want to sit & read (& he will read a book from cover to cover & then start again without taking a breath!) But the youngest will want to look at her books later, so my son quickly decides that he'd rather play with her & then it all goes wrong.

Or she will want to sit & read but he will have it in his head that he wants to recreate a pirate book or something that he's just seen in the library, so they play that, & then It all goes wrong.

Thank you for saying that about the buses by the way! I never, EVER see any other kids arguing on the bus. Only mine, & ALWAYS mine!

Thank you CopperNanoTubes I do most of that already. Lists & schedules everywhere. Notebook, pens, crayons, bouncy balls, cars are a staple in my bag (my son often goes off on his own at the park & plays with the toy cars, once I've told him to leave his sister alone)

We can't really do the things like Lego therapy because they won't let each other play. They make comments that they are doing it wrong or laugh or roll around on the floor moaning about being bored.

The removing one is NOT working but it's what I'm doing (& will continue to do forever) if I move my son then he screams & cries & 9/10 it turns into a full on violent meltdown lasting hours. He just cannot understand why he's being moved.

If I move my daughter then she SCREAMS bloody murder & will stamp her feet (learned behaviour) & sadly this can last for an hour or so as well now.

The difference is my son needs to be left alone so that he will (hopefully) eventually ca down himself, & them it's like it never happened.

My daughter, I'm not sure yet. Seems to need the contact of me being there but it doesn't seem to calm her any sooner, but I'd still rather be with her than not, if that makes sense!

Some siblings just don't get on! My brother and I fought like cat and dog as kids. As adults we can't stand each other. It happens quite a lot!

The other thing they both do is refuse to let the past go. I feel like I've turned into flipping Elsa, the amount of times in a day I say 'Let it go'!

I find this very difficult. Acknowledging the hurt feelings from now, but at the same time trying to explain to them that something that happened between them at school 3 weeks ago, but wasn't mentioned until now, isn't something that I can 'fix' as such.

Thank you LuckysDadsHat I know. I wouldn't say that I didn't get along with my sister growing up, we tolerated each other but stayed away from each other really. I was close to my brother & as adults will see my sister once a year & my brother half a dozen times, as well as texts in between, so that's absolutely carried over from our childhood.

The difficulty seems to be that my 2 WANT to like each other?! They WANT to play together (generally) they just cannot manage it. And I'm left standing there saying 'We don't use those words. Let's speak nicely & quietly'. Feeling like an absolute idiot whilst they SCREAM at each other & completely ignore me.

I’ll start this by saying that I have a child with ASD. So this is not meant as a criticism but I think the problem is your older one. He can’t make friends in the playground so your daughter has to play with him. She tries to do a task and he is hyper critical of her. I fully understand why, but it might be a good idea to to start thinking about coping strategies and distraction techniques for him/to allow him to be more independent.

Gladespade It's ok, I don't take it as criticism.
He is learning. I think. Very slowly. It's sooo slow. But when I say 'No, she's doing (whatever) now. You will have to find something else to do'. This used to result in FURY from him, but now, he (sometimes) let's me help him find something else to do. Or will write me a shopping list, do some ironing (he's recently discovered ironing as I bought a mini iron & he loves it!)

He's also learning (again, slowly) that sometimes he wants to be on his own, so it's ok for his sister to be on her own. Eg she loves to potter in the garden doing nothing much, & he can't understand why she won't play with him then, because she's not doing anything! And his version of being on his own is being in his room with the door shut, but hers is being around us, but doing something alone.

And at the park, yes. I'm trying to teach him that it's not his sister's job to occupy him basically.

My DC went through a phase of this. At home, as soon as they argued about a toy or TV show etc, I just removed the cause of the row from them both and put them in separate rooms for a while with a toy of my choice. Then said, if they could agree without fighting, how to take turns on the thing that caused the problem, they could have it back, otherwise, carry on in separate rooms. After doing that a few times, I overheard them whispering to each other 'no, let;s no fight or mum will take it away.' And they started problem solving.

On days out, I'd chat with them before we left, and discuss taking turns and a reward (like an ice cream) if they got through the day without fighting. Didn't always work and they didn't always get the reward. Some days were hell. But by deciding in advance who would press the bell, who would sit alone etc, the fights got reduced.

It's bloody hard work sometimes!

ND is a real pig sometimes, basically means your brain instincts go against your own reasonable interests constantly.
It might be worth reading up on PDA autism for some tips.
Also suspect your whole family to some extent, even if it's not diagnosable you might find that your whole family is affected to some degree.
Good luck! Some good tips here I'm taking note.

You are doing fine. They like to argue. Try rewarding, star charts etc if punishment gets you nowhere. Find clubs for the older one to attend. Lots of summer stuff out there. Make more friends for them if you can, then get them to go individually.

JDob Thank you. I do reward charts already, to a point, my son in particular loves them but they don't work because if he doesn't get a mark then he just doesn't take it well at all.

High school for the older one in September so hopefully (hopefully!!!!) This will help some.

johnd2 Thank you, I'd not thought of it like that comment but yes, & also yes to the PDA.

meadowwild Thank you, but that doesn't really work for us. I do the whole 'This is how we are going to behave on the bus' etc. & they agree. But eg it will be my daughter's turn to choose the seat, & my son will spend the time saying 'This seat is rubbish, you really chose the wrong seat' etc. And winds her up. (& she does the same to him) same with pressing the bell. The other one quickly presses it (& then the other one will still be screaming about it 3 hours later)

We've got off the bus & gone home before but this doesn't help as we are then all stuck in the house & it doesn't change the behaviour for next time. Also it's constant 'You didn't let us go (wherever)' like they had no part in us having to get off the bus.

I also do the 'Nobody else is allowed to speak until we get there'. But they then pull faces at each other, kick each other etc, & whilst that is 'Normal' sibling stuff, it then escalates.

They were both told off at an activity the other day by the organisers for arguing instead of doing the activity (mortified)

Sorry, I feel like this is a really negative post!

My two are like this and it’s really depressing actually. I’m a sole parent so can’t take each one out separately. Both mine ND. 14 and 10. I’m wondering whether to give up on outings together at all and I’m really disappointed to think we might not be able to go on holidays again. The last two we’ve had were made impossible. Mainly from younger one constantly upset/angry/crying about being mistreated by everyone and then the older one just needs to look at him or say one unkind thing (which she shouldn’t obs) and that is the entire day ruined as he will scream and cry. It’s so exhausting. Sympathy to all going through it.

Hi MorrowTreasure Thank you for this & I'm sorry that you find it difficult too. It is so draining isn't it.

We are having a little bit of success right now with timers (tried previously but they didn't work) as in... 'If you play 15 minutes nicely then we will do (whatever)' but it doesn't sit great with me tbh. I feel like other parents don't have to constantly use bribery for their children to behave! (Every now & then, sure!) & there's a lot of 'Well we need an extra 2 minutes because they went for a wee/played with the cat & missed 2 mins of my game & it's not fair' etc. And then the screaming from both of them begins. It's exhausting.

The holidays bought with them a new challenge. I've started to let my daughter cross some smaller roads on her own. And her brother will wait until the last second & then charge across too, so she gets upset that he's spoiled her new thing... It's just unkindness from him. I try not to make it into a 'You are the eldest' thing but I do say it sometimes. More often though I'll say 'You know how upset your sister gets so just let her cross the road, otherwise we all end up missing out, don't we, just because you ran across the road with her, & it's not nice to do things deliberately to upset somebody is it. Same as I tell her if she does something to you'. Only works 2/10 times though.

Also my son obsessing over what's 'fair'. He was like this before & then it (thankfully) stopped but it's come back with a vengeance.
Eg I'll get my daughter some new clothes one day, my son another day, or he will get his first, & then I'll get hers, but then he will still be saying 'Wheres mine?' I try my hardest to give them both the same amount at the same time every time but sometimes, like when she's ripped 3 pairs of tights & then I see some tights on sale in Sainsbury's so buy her those (& I'll also buy them both eg paper & pens in Sainsbury's) & I'll specifically say to him that she needs these tights & he doesn't need trousers right now & he will say 'I know, she fell over the other day & ripped her tights didn't she, it's fine'... But then later on I'll have 3 hours of him screaming at me about her getting new clothes & not him.

For once I'd just like to be able to buy one item of clothing, for one child & not have it turn into the end of the world!

Have you read Siblings Without Rivalry by Adele Faber? It has some decent ways to diffuse certain situations and strategies.

Thank you doodleschnoodle, no I havn't although I've possibly been recommended it before. I'll have a look.

If it’s any consolation 2 of mine were like that. They couldn’t sit beside each other in the car or across from each other at the table. Boy & girl. But now at 20 & 16 they are best friends, it’s unreal sometimes to think back to how they were. I have 4 kids but it was just these 2 who clashed.

Hi op I don't have any solutions for your situation now, but I did have 2 (older DD - ND) and younger DS. 3 year age gap like yours and only went to their Dad's sporadically.

I occasionally sent one to their Dad's if he would have them to diffuse the situation as they were exactly like yours. It's soul destroying and they have no idea who hard it is being with them inside or outside the house when you have planned something which is supposed to be a nice day out and you end up miserable and exhausted.

Mine are now 17 and 14 and for the last 2 or so years have been best of friends. I never thought I would see it. Ever!

Now I feel a bit isolated as they are so close I end up feeling left out! But it's far better and easier than what you have now. I remember it so well. Sorry you are having to deal with it

Thank you for that kind message, & I'm glad that you got through it, beasmithwentworth. I hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel for us all! I feel bad sometimes that they do know how difficult it is. We had a question on the back of a snack box the other day, 'One thing you would wish for right now' & my son said 'Mum wishes for us to stop arguing'. & they hadn't even been arguing (yet!) That day.

Their dad won't take one like that, anything that he thinks will also give me a break (as well as them) & he won't do it.

Thank you Manchesterbythesea I think it upsets me more because they are my only 2! There's the shame factor, that my only 2 hate each other, so it must be my fault, & I feel like I should be able to manage 'just 2' & people say things like 'You've only got 2, if they fight when you are out, just separate them, put one on each side of you, its easy with 2'.

I've also only got 2 hands though. Add in a bag of shopping or something & I'm screwed... Wish I were an octopus.

@ZoriaBoo

Have we got the same ex? He only took one as he wanted to - anything that would mean that I got a break or if it meant I benefited in any way from anything he does is a hard no from him even if it would be good for the DC. His intense dislike of me (I have no idea why - he was the one that left me for someone else 15 years ago and I haven't done anything in that time for him to hate me) rises above anything that would be good for his kids. It's like a hobby / interest for him !

It sounds exhausting, but I feel really sorry for your DD in all this. It sounds like her older brother is hyper critical of her, and is determined to spoil all things for her. Everything you have said is about him controlling what she does. She tries to help he says it's wrong, she picks something he belittles her and says she wrong, he demands her attention and then hits her when she doesn't do as he expects. She has no way of come back other than screaming out of frustration or responding in the same way. You need to remove your DS every single time he does something. Even if it results in melt downs. And you need to be really mindful of him whacking her, you've said a couple of times he does it, and then pleads innocence, it's a really awful environment for your DD to grow up in.

@ZoriaBoo

Stepping back - why do is the authoritative, or even authoritarian parenting approach not used anymore, rather more gentle and / or collaborative forms of parenting instead?
Because it's deemed to be detrimental to children.

In your situation however, isn't the current situation as things stand more detrimental to them?
In which case - on a lesser of two evils approach - it would be worth trying the authoritarian parenting approach. And if that reduces the strife, it could be preferable on balance for their well being and yours.

SeulementUneFois Authoritarian as in doing what?

ZeroFucksGivenToday She has her moments. Sometimes she's deliberately unkind too but yes it's definitely more my son. I do remove him. Obviously it's more difficult when we are out but yes they are always separated.

I think it would have to mean harsher consequences, as per previous generations (not physical violence!!, that's not what I mean at all).
Time-outs, withdrawal of privileges, whatever would work with them but you think it's too harsh to do...everything on a more accentuated scale - it'll make them unhappy momentarily but if it's harsh enough for them to change their behaviours, the resulting environment with less strife will be less unhappy for them longer term.
E.g. don't know your exact circumstances so likely not applicable but just as potential examples - can you leave one of them in childcare. Or with a grandparent that's not much fun. These could be completely non applicable but just so you see what I'm trying to get to...!