Ex taking child to his home country

[Livingwithex]

Ex is going to see his elderly parents in his home country. His taking his dd as well and wants to take my dd. I dont want to say which country as too outing, but what are my rights if he doesnt come back. His ex agreed for their dd to go so Im willing to agree to.
From reading mumsnet I understand there is some convetion/agreement that government would help me if he abducted her. Google is not helping me much.

Hey OP. My father left to live in France when I was a kid. Some things happens (really nothing much) and my mother spoke to a lawyer about it. Remember, this was France. She was advised not to let us go there with him for fear of us not being returned.

Even if the country has signed The Hague Convention, if he overstays with the kids it doesn't follow that they'll be returned immediately. There are procedures.

I know you've said you're not going to allow her to go. I think that sounds sensible. But please put in place the necessary steps to stop it happening anyway, just in case.

My country is liberal and western. We are signatories to the Hague Convention. Recently, a mother misled her former husband about coming for a short stay in this country and simply refused to return with the children. This was despite the children being previously raised in a European country where they had been born and where the parents had been married and were resident. It took 7 months for the case to grind on through the courts and for the final decision that the children must be returned to Europe. The father would have had to engage counsel and travel here for the case. It must have cost a lot of money to get the children back and after 7 months there was even arguments that the children were now settled here and should not be moved. I would be very wary of giving consent if he has very little to tie him to the UK and I wouldn't care what the other mother was doing.

Listen to life changing on bbc sounds the episode with Tracey is about her kids being abducted by their father. She didn't see them for 11 yrs. be careful

If you are worried he could abduct them I'd not only be saying no I'd be getting a prohibited steps order to make sure he couldn't sneak DD out of the country either. How long do you have till the trip? If this is something he might do and he's taking his older DC then that time he's traveling would be risky in that he might try to just take your DD.

Also, alert the school that he is not allowed to collect her

He’s on her birth certificate and has PR - without a court order the school legally cannot stop him collecting her.

Well, that's tricky. Only solution is to always collect the child from school herself or some other nominated person when she isn't able to do it

Could he be taking the girls for FMG? If that is a custom in his country, no way should she go. Map of areas

https://www.unfpa.org/resources/female-genital-mutilation-fgm-frequently-asked-questions

So countries that don’t have good record of womens right are Muslim countries?

Don't be so ignorant. Maybe if you did your research you’d see most countries with a bad record of womens right happen to be NON Muslim countries.

There are so many unanswered questions Op that make it difficult to provide you with a good answer that is fair too. So many responses have been given based on a range if phobias and assumptions.
Flip this. If you lived in his country and wanted to bring your kids to uk with you to sew family, would he be right to arbitrarily say no, am afraid you will abduct them so they won't go? That would be unfair, no? Or would it be faie because UK is a Western country ir not a "rare" country (whatever that means)?
Other than that he can easily find a job there, why do you think he could abduct them? You may be absolutely right but you have not given the reason behind it. You say he is a good dad here. So what makes you think he will abduct them? Won't a reasonable justification be required in any applications to stop this? And by the way, I don't think mentioning a country is outing (there so many international partnerships and ex partnerships here!) and it might help in what advice is given (rather than the assumptions i have seen here)

By rare country I meant I havent seen it mentioned on mumsnet before.

he said if it wasnt for his kids me and his ex would never see him again. Thats why I think he might not come back.

What’s he like as a person generally op?

Does he respect your decisions? Does he normally have care of both girls together often? Is he controlling at all?

Given that why are you even considering letting him take her?

You should be investigating prohibited steps orders to stop him rather than going along with it so passively.

Please get in touch with Reunite.org TODAY for expert advice.

It is often said that if the other parent takes the kids to a country that adheres to The Hague Convention there are mechanisms to bring the children back BUT what it is often omitted is that these mechanisms can only be activated IF and only IF you have a residence order to your favour or you have asked the family courts already for one.

I insist, contact Reunite.org ASAP, they can give you good advice for free.

Nope. You need to have a residence order or be in the process of getting one. Otherwise your chances of getting the children back if he keeps them abroad are MINIMAL.

Putting it in a simple way, he is as much a parent as you are so if either of you leave the country with the children and stay there for a few weeks, get them in school, etc. the likelihood of getting the courts to uproot the children to return to the other parent when they are settled somewhere else with the other parent is a court process that it will not be only expensive (think several £10,000s) but is also unlikely to succeed.

OP legally you need to have a good reason to stop them going. A few newspaper articles about a couple of terrible parental kidnapping cases - when thousands of separated parents bring their kids on holidays to meet extended families every year without issue, is not a good reason. The opinions of some random people on the internet won't count. He can take you to court to force this if you don't have a good reason not to give permission.

But morally, you say his parents are elderly. So this may be your kid's only opportunity to visit with the whole family and create memories and photos and all of that. Surely you need a good reason to deny your child that? Again, many, many, many kids visit eg Granny in Scotland with Mum while their separated Dad works in London, and no one writes articles about it because it's normal and the kids return from their holidays happy to have seen Granny and Scotland. Most parents want their kids to know their family, yet most parents are not a kidnapping risk.

Do you have a reason to think he is a kidnapping risk? Because so far you haven't given one other than "he is only in the UK because he loves his kids, so if he could become a criminal and upend their lives by kidnapping them, he might do that".

If he is a good Dad who loves his kids enough to have stayed in the UK for them, is it possible he just wants to bring them on holiday to meet his family and understand that bit of their heritage?

Of course the kidnapping cases are horrible and unsettling, but they're also a tiny minority of the cases involving separated parents where one parent is from another country (which includes Scotland or Northern Ireland if you're in England or Wales). It's just that they're the only ones written about, because stories about banal but successful (or even banal and miserable) family holidays don't sell papers.

Is it a country known for FGM?

@ims0rrydarlingg please stop being so disingenuous. No country in the world gives priority to women's rights over other people's but you cannot compare countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan where women are not allowed things like driving on their own, opening the door to their own houses and worst of all, denied the right of having an education to the rest of the world.

I understand that some people are protective of their heritage but c'mon, we watch the news and can see what's going on in such countries.

I knew someone years ago that had to take her ex to court to allow her to take their child to her home country. The country were signatories to The Hague convention. she was made to leave a sizeable sum of money in a court trust to cover the costs of recovering the child if she didn’t return. Even with The Hague convention it’s still $1000s of dollars in lawyers fees airfares ect. I’m not sure if that’s something that happens in the Uk too but if you do let her go it might be worth looking into? Especially if you didn’t have the funds to cover the costs.

For fucks sake, protect your child, NoNo,No. If your have any fears do not let this happen.

It is infinitesimally easier to reunite a parent with a child if they’re only taken to another part of the British isles. All 4 countries form part of the uk and the law is clear. Not so with other countries even if full signatories of The Hague convention.

Even if taken to the ROI, the ROI government would fully cooperate. Rather different from the example above of Germany. Some other European countries would also be problematic. Op says he’s not from Europe but a small country not on that continent. The costs to repatriate a child from even further afield would spiral m

If he has PR and there is no Court Order the school can't legally do anything to stop him picking the child up. They can delay but unless the OP is close by then the delaying will only work for so long.

FGM risk???

Literally wtf is wrong with some people. Even questioning or thinking about letting your ex take your daughter and abducting her is enough to know it's not a good idea?? How bizarre.

Most people don't identify their or their ancestors countries of origin on mumsnet as they don't want to be identified in rl.

And in regards to returning children from muslim and christian countries - I know of a case where a parent took a child to a Christian country that is signed up to the Hague convention and didn't return him. The child was only returned due to his female paternal relations. There as I know more children taken to a majority Muslim country who isn't a signatory to the Hague convention but children are returned to the UK. The latter country's sexism means it is viewed that children should stay with their mothers.

Listen to your instincts OP.
Have a chat if you can with the mother of his other daughter.
He may be spinning you a yarn there, but it would also be a kindness, in case he is saying the same to her, ie that you have already given permission.
People are talking about the expense but that is nothing compared to the potential for trauma here.
Like you said in the post, your feelings are irrelevant, he only values the kids.
That says it all.