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I have a hard time believing that DS2 is the worst behaved child at nursery. Perspective?

72 replies

BertieBotts · 02/03/2023 22:23

Sorry for clickbait title - bear with me because I promise I'm not that horror parent who believes their child can do no wrong.

Anyway. DS2 is 4.5yo. We live in Germany so he's still at nursery (kindergarten), not school yet. I actually couldn't imagine him in school (August birthday, so would be young in the year anyway).

We've been getting reports for a few months that they are finding him difficult to manage. It's mostly around situations where he is asked to stop doing something, if he doesn't want to stop then he just develops this selective deafness and pretends nobody is speaking. It's irritating - he does it occasionally at home, and honestly, sometimes we get irritated and shout in response. When we manage to stay calmer then we would go in and interrupt or physically stop the behaviour (e.g. if he was annoying his brother) and/or remove him from the situation. We would then tell him not to do it and reiterate that he had been asked not to (DH uses the word naughty, I prefer to give a short explanation of why e.g. "That will damage the wall/DS3 doesn't like that") Usually this is fine and effective, sometimes he will retort back with something like "No it doesn't!" which I think is quite normal for four.

If the behaviour continues or argument escalates, then I would look more directly into prevention e.g. take the toy that is being used inappropriately away, suggest a different activity, do some problem solving esp between him and DS3 (1.5yo) if they are clashing over a toy or something.

Or DH is more likely to give a warning that he would be sent to bedroom (this is literally next door so is basically time out)/to sit on sofa/TV turned off. After this he would then talk to DS calmly and ensure that he understood the reason for the consequence.

Although I've described these as my vs DH's approach, DH does sometimes use my approach - mostly removing the problem item or suggesting something else or distracting DS3 away, I will do the warning/punishment occasionally but I prefer not to, because I find when punishment gets involved it just tends to increase his tendency to be argumentative/wind me up back and it starts off a whole spiral which is ultimately unhelpful.

It happens more when he is tired/needs a poo/hungry/etc so when there is a pattern of him being especially nuts we would generally try to get a snack/meal into him ASAP or insist that he goes to the toilet, and try to keep on top of these things in general, which does help. I also suspect he is a bit sensitive to noise and he does not like being in crowds of rowdy people, which might be behind the fact that it seems to happen more often at nursery.

When he is in one of these "discomfort" states he is also likely to freak out and lash out (hit/scream/fall to the floor crying) over the slightest misunderstanding as well (e.g. if you unzip his coat when he wanted to do it, if the biscuit breaks in half, if his brother sits in "his" chair etc) although we aren't really getting reports of this from nursery, at least not towards the staff, they do say that he will lash out "randomly" at other kids. I don't think it's totally random, but I can see that it might be happening with very little provocation or seemingly with no provocation, because quite frequently he'll mention some incident where another child has "done something bad to me" or "did owie me" or even stuff like "I don't like those bad boys" but when you press for details he insists that he can't remember or he doesn't know, or he changes the subject. If you ask whether he told the teacher it's always no, they never know anything about it if you ask them directly, and stuff like when he was potty training he would have accidents and we'd say well did you tell the teacher that you needed to go to the toilet, and he'd say no. Sometimes I'd turn up to get him and he'd be wet because he'd not told anybody he'd wet himself. So my assumption is that he's getting into a disagreement of some kind (which might well be his fault, I'm not meaning that he's some put upon victim!) and, lacking the skills to deal with it maturely but also lacking the inclination to ask an adult for help.

German/nursery approach to behaviour/boundaries is like our initial response - talk to child calmly about their behaviour, they don't really do time out/punishments etc (though sometimes they will separate children into different rooms or take them elsewhere to calm down).

But anyway - here's the thing I'm finding strange. They report that this is happening approx 3-4 times every day, and that he is the child who is taking up the most teacher time. Apparently, the other children stop when asked to stop from the opposite side of the room/playground. I think that's unusual at four. (The children are age 2-6). I think DS is a bit stubborn but basically totally normal and even fairly easy - you can generally reason with him as long as you catch it early enough and he hasn't dug his heels in. I can see, as I've been writing this out, that it's quite possibly the "random lashing out" at other children which might be more of the 3-4 issues per day. Because this doesn't really happen at home, I hadn't really connected this, until I'd written it out here. I'd kind of written this off as just children squabbling.

But isn't this fairly usual for this age? I know that the lashing out is a problem. DH has already spoken to the teacher twice (and thinks that we need to be a bit more on top of consequences at home) and we have spoken to DS2 but it hasn't really helped. I do not want to do punishment at home if he gets into trouble at school because he's four and I think that's totally unhelpful, whatever response needs to be at the time (DH agrees). I am going to speak to them next week because I think we need to look at what's leading up to it and not just focus on the response. I guess I'm just a bit puzzled because I would have thought that the selective deafness and disagreements between children turning physical were quite normal behaviour for this age. Yes, it's misbehaviour, yes it needs correcting, but him being the worst/taking up most of their time really surprises me.

But maybe my perception is wrong? I just remember DS1 at this age being literally constantly in that hair trigger screaming dervish mode, not being able to cope with stuff like me turning off the TV, he wouldn't let me talk to other adults because he would be constantly running at me and being disruptive, and it wasn't happening 3-4 times a day but more like 10+ times a day. He was also a perfect angel at nursery and never caused any issues at all Confused He has ADHD, explaining the extreme home behaviour, though I didn't know that until years later. And so do I, so it's not completely insane to wonder if DS2 has it as well although he is so much calmer that I had kind of dismissed this.

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PaigeMatthews · 02/03/2023 22:30

I do think your perception is wrong, tbh. You're describing him at home as you're being told he is at nursery, yet don't believe nursery.

i shouldn't have said this was normal reception aged behaviour.

does he have a diagnosis as well as his brother?

Eevvee · 02/03/2023 22:32

I can only offer you my perspective of my children. My DS1 was very similar to your child at that age. Issues with lashing out in frustration, dislike of busy places and lots of people and noises. Unable to handle transitions. Too busy/distracted to go to the toilet.

He was diagnosed with autism at 8YO.

It's all well and good saying that nursery need to focus on the lead up to his outbursts, but with a class of 30 kids that is not always possible for them to do. My DS never had any issues at home (and still doesn't) because we have always been able to prempt his behaviour. At school he was a nightmare because his teachers could not manage his behaviours with the rest of the class.

Speak to the nursery and ask them what their professional opinion is. Take it from there.

RandomMess · 02/03/2023 22:32

At 4 most DC do as they are told at nursery/school. I would be seeking a referral to rule ADHD in or out.

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Nimbostratus100 · 02/03/2023 22:35

I wouldn't call that behaviour "irritating" - I would call it defiant, and would be dealing with it far more robustly

Youcancallmeirrelevant · 02/03/2023 22:36

Your description of tantrums when tv is turned off etc i would say is common at 2-3years but not 4+ multiple times a day.

anon37484291918 · 02/03/2023 22:38

I would be seeking a referral. You are disagreeing with nursery over behaviour you say he does at home. Nursery need to manage his and lots of other children all at the same time but at home you're able to focus solely on him to stop/minimise. Nursery are not able to do that to the same extent.

I wouldn't say his reaction at age 4 is typical. More typical of a 2 year old.

Cornelious2011 · 02/03/2023 22:42

At 4.5 most children would respond to an adult in an authoritative figure pretty quickly (SeN aside). I think your perception is way out.

BertieBotts · 02/03/2023 22:42

I do believe nursery, what I mean is I'm surprised that he is the only one or that other children are not doing the same or worse. I would have thought he is middle of the road, not perfectly behaved but not a complete nightmare either. Bearing in mind this is not a reception class, they have children aged 2-6 there.

He does not have an ADHD diagnosis and I hadn't particularly thought to look for one. I just thought I'd mention it because when DH said to the nursery that the older sibling plus mother has this they wrote it down, so it sounded like they found it relevant.

OP posts:
justasking111 · 02/03/2023 22:43

anon37484291918 · 02/03/2023 22:38

I would be seeking a referral. You are disagreeing with nursery over behaviour you say he does at home. Nursery need to manage his and lots of other children all at the same time but at home you're able to focus solely on him to stop/minimise. Nursery are not able to do that to the same extent.

I wouldn't say his reaction at age 4 is typical. More typical of a 2 year old.

Agreed. The parents need advice on how to manage him, present ways aren't working

Housefullofcatsandkids · 02/03/2023 22:47

As others have said I'd say that behaviour was more typical for a toddler. I would push for a referral and it sounds like nursery would be supportive which is good.
You've said about the class being 2-6 year olds but I would assume they would be split into groups at least and higher ratios of staff with the two year olds hence why it's more disruptive if he's in a group with the 4/5 year olds or even 4-6 year olds it is quite possible he is the only one displaying these behaviours

Smartiepants79 · 02/03/2023 22:47

I teach 4 year olds. Selective hearing is normal. Ignoring instructions and having to be asked several times is normal.
hitting/ screaming/ falling to the floor when an adult insists on the instructions being followed is much less normal.
If he’s really having several incidents across a day that involve lashing out at others or crying, shouting tantrums then I’m afraid that would be considered quite challenging behaviour for a child of his age.
Nursery are trying to tell you that they’re worried. I think you need to listen and take them seriously.

PaigeMatthews · 02/03/2023 22:48

BertieBotts · 02/03/2023 22:42

I do believe nursery, what I mean is I'm surprised that he is the only one or that other children are not doing the same or worse. I would have thought he is middle of the road, not perfectly behaved but not a complete nightmare either. Bearing in mind this is not a reception class, they have children aged 2-6 there.

He does not have an ADHD diagnosis and I hadn't particularly thought to look for one. I just thought I'd mention it because when DH said to the nursery that the older sibling plus mother has this they wrote it down, so it sounded like they found it relevant.

I missed that you have ADHD as well. Id definitely be looking at a referral for a diagnosis tbh. You're as definitely describing behaviour more typical of a 2-3 year old.

PaigeMatthews · 02/03/2023 22:51

I'm surprised that he is the only one or that other children are not doing the same or worse. I would have thought he is middle of the road

read back at how you describe his behaviour at nursery and at home. And then think about what behaviour would be worse, and how many of the children would have to be doing that for your child’s behaviour to be middle of the road.

Mariposista · 02/03/2023 22:51

His behaviour does sound very toddler like but at the same time, as you say, he is the German system, which keeps kids as babies far longer. 6 year olds in the same settings as 2 year olds? No formal school until over 7? Sure, every country has their way of doing things, but if he is being treated like a toddler, is it any wonder he is behaving like one?

mnahmnah · 02/03/2023 22:52

If you spent a day in a reception classroom in the UK, you would see that nearly all the children at that age absolutely do as they are asked all day, without interventions for their behaviour. He sounds really hard work. I agree with others that I would get him assessed. What is the nursery’s plan for his behaviour? Are they putting something in place, recommending an assessment? Or just complaining to you? Sound a a very different approach to what a nursery or school here would do.

JennyDarlingRIP · 02/03/2023 22:53

DS is 4 and on occasion we get the selective hearing, not daily, definitely not at nursery. I also wouldn't expect a 4.5 year old to be lashing out. DS has Spanish lesson, dance class, football with outside teachers coming in and daily forest school with the class teachers, at nursery for a class of 3-4 year olds, they wouldn't be able to do this if most children behaved the way yours seems to. Of course occasionally children get distracted or mess around, but that's not what this sounds like.

BertieBotts · 02/03/2023 22:53

He doesn't have a tantrum when the TV is turned off, that was DS1 (who does have ADHD but is much older now).

Our ways of managing him do work at home. I think that's possibly what has caused a bit of a disconnect here, because DS1 was extremely difficult at home but apparently easy at school/nursery. DS2 is easier at home (but maybe still a bit more difficult than average) but difficult at nursery, but maybe I've incorrectly assumed that DS1 used to behave the same at nursery as he did for me, and therefore that nurseries are used to DS1's home-behaviour (which used to drive me to tears) when actually he was behaving completely differently at nursery.

Yes it might be that we are more aware of his triggers in a way that nursery can't be.

I did suggest taking him to get assessed when DH was worrying about this before Christmas, but DH thought that was ridiculous. However he's more concerned about the nursery thing - I haven't been there for the really bad days which might be why we have a different perspective.

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Canigothere · 02/03/2023 23:00

He’s either got complex needs or is just a brat. I think it sounds like there are needs here. Which I think although a challenge, is better than having a child who is just a brat. Good luck.

PeekAtYou · 02/03/2023 23:05

My kids went to kindergarten in Germany. What time are you picking him up? The one that they went to had a 12:45pm pickup. They hadn't had lunch at that point so came out hungry and thirsty.

At home they wouldn't always listen but they were always angels for the teachers. I remember nice ds was having a tantrum while out and about and we bumped into his teacher and he immediately stopped crying- magic!

My kids were at Kindergarten 15 years ago so my info may be out of date but if a child needed discipline they had them sit away from the fun, calm down and reflect on their behaviour which was what happened when they went to UK primaries when they were older.

What is the adult to child ratio like? If it's anything like the kindergarten that my kids went to then there is absolutely no chance that they'd know what the lead up was because there was far too many kids to keep track.

BramleyAppleHotCrossBun · 02/03/2023 23:06

I’m sorry, OP, but I agree your perception is off. You also seem quite defensive when PPs are highlighting this.

4.5yo’s do not typically behave this way. You are ND, as is your eldest child. You’re being incredibly naive not to join the dots, IMO.

WeightoftheWorld · 02/03/2023 23:08

Your DS sounds like how my DD is at home (same age). Also the reporting of other kids being bad to her that she never tells staff about, not sure what to make of those, but it's not that often for us thankfully. However she behaves differently at nursery, much calmer and doesn't tantrum there really. So they have no concerns about her. However at home she is exactly as you describe. I'm autistic myself and it's on my radar, I did refer in to CAMHS to ask for a specific intervention for anxiety that I thought she'd benefit from but it the referral was essentially rejected at triage. My DD is not in school here either btw despite being 4.5 as we chose to send her at 5 instead as she definitely was not ready for school.

BertieBotts · 02/03/2023 23:10

Apologies struggling to keep up on mobile.

They are not split into groups, it's similar to a Montessori age structure, the only age group that is split off is under 2s, and they are allowed access to the rest of the facility some of the time although the baby room teachers follow them to assist with ratios. The children starting school next year so age 5-6 are sometimes taken out to do school prep type work too so in fact he'd be on the older end of the 2-5y group. I don't think they are treated as babies though, what an odd thing to say. The activities are age appropriate, very similar to reception class science, art etc (they just don't start reading until 6) and surely if the setting was the issue then he would be totally average - clearly not.

I am taking them seriously and interested in what they have to say, I think my confusion thus far has been that it has been very vague and anecdotal and mostly communicated to DH and not me, which is partly why I'm meant to be going for a meeting next week. I thought I'd look for perspective first because it just wasn't making sense to me. It seems pretty clear on here that I'm the one with the wrong impression of what's normal, anyway!

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MistyFrequencies · 02/03/2023 23:11

Yeah your perception is off. He needs more help/support.

NuffSaidSam · 02/03/2023 23:15

I agree that your perception is off, probably based on your experiences of DC1.

I think if you'd described his behaviour and asked people to guess his age, most would have said around 2.5. That's the age where this behaviour would be commonplace and developmentally appropriate. Of course, children develop at different rates so it's not unheard of for a 4.5 year old to occasionally exhibit some of this behaviour, but everyday, multiple times a day is indicative of an additional need of some kind/developmental delay.

NuffSaidSam · 02/03/2023 23:18

Out of interest what was he like at 2.5? Have you seen significant development in his emotional regulation and behaviour since then? Or has he stagnated a little bit in his development?