I have a hard time believing that DS2 is the worst behaved child at nursery. Perspective?

[BertieBotts]

Sorry for clickbait title - bear with me because I promise I'm not that horror parent who believes their child can do no wrong.

Anyway. DS2 is 4.5yo. We live in Germany so he's still at nursery (kindergarten), not school yet. I actually couldn't imagine him in school (August birthday, so would be young in the year anyway).

We've been getting reports for a few months that they are finding him difficult to manage. It's mostly around situations where he is asked to stop doing something, if he doesn't want to stop then he just develops this selective deafness and pretends nobody is speaking. It's irritating - he does it occasionally at home, and honestly, sometimes we get irritated and shout in response. When we manage to stay calmer then we would go in and interrupt or physically stop the behaviour (e.g. if he was annoying his brother) and/or remove him from the situation. We would then tell him not to do it and reiterate that he had been asked not to (DH uses the word naughty, I prefer to give a short explanation of why e.g. "That will damage the wall/DS3 doesn't like that") Usually this is fine and effective, sometimes he will retort back with something like "No it doesn't!" which I think is quite normal for four.

If the behaviour continues or argument escalates, then I would look more directly into prevention e.g. take the toy that is being used inappropriately away, suggest a different activity, do some problem solving esp between him and DS3 (1.5yo) if they are clashing over a toy or something.

Or DH is more likely to give a warning that he would be sent to bedroom (this is literally next door so is basically time out)/to sit on sofa/TV turned off. After this he would then talk to DS calmly and ensure that he understood the reason for the consequence.

Although I've described these as my vs DH's approach, DH does sometimes use my approach - mostly removing the problem item or suggesting something else or distracting DS3 away, I will do the warning/punishment occasionally but I prefer not to, because I find when punishment gets involved it just tends to increase his tendency to be argumentative/wind me up back and it starts off a whole spiral which is ultimately unhelpful.

It happens more when he is tired/needs a poo/hungry/etc so when there is a pattern of him being especially nuts we would generally try to get a snack/meal into him ASAP or insist that he goes to the toilet, and try to keep on top of these things in general, which does help. I also suspect he is a bit sensitive to noise and he does not like being in crowds of rowdy people, which might be behind the fact that it seems to happen more often at nursery.

When he is in one of these "discomfort" states he is also likely to freak out and lash out (hit/scream/fall to the floor crying) over the slightest misunderstanding as well (e.g. if you unzip his coat when he wanted to do it, if the biscuit breaks in half, if his brother sits in "his" chair etc) although we aren't really getting reports of this from nursery, at least not towards the staff, they do say that he will lash out "randomly" at other kids. I don't think it's totally random, but I can see that it might be happening with very little provocation or seemingly with no provocation, because quite frequently he'll mention some incident where another child has "done something bad to me" or "did owie me" or even stuff like "I don't like those bad boys" but when you press for details he insists that he can't remember or he doesn't know, or he changes the subject. If you ask whether he told the teacher it's always no, they never know anything about it if you ask them directly, and stuff like when he was potty training he would have accidents and we'd say well did you tell the teacher that you needed to go to the toilet, and he'd say no. Sometimes I'd turn up to get him and he'd be wet because he'd not told anybody he'd wet himself. So my assumption is that he's getting into a disagreement of some kind (which might well be his fault, I'm not meaning that he's some put upon victim!) and, lacking the skills to deal with it maturely but also lacking the inclination to ask an adult for help.

German/nursery approach to behaviour/boundaries is like our initial response - talk to child calmly about their behaviour, they don't really do time out/punishments etc (though sometimes they will separate children into different rooms or take them elsewhere to calm down).

But anyway - here's the thing I'm finding strange. They report that this is happening approx 3-4 times every day, and that he is the child who is taking up the most teacher time. Apparently, the other children stop when asked to stop from the opposite side of the room/playground. I think that's unusual at four. (The children are age 2-6). I think DS is a bit stubborn but basically totally normal and even fairly easy - you can generally reason with him as long as you catch it early enough and he hasn't dug his heels in. I can see, as I've been writing this out, that it's quite possibly the "random lashing out" at other children which might be more of the 3-4 issues per day. Because this doesn't really happen at home, I hadn't really connected this, until I'd written it out here. I'd kind of written this off as just children squabbling.

But isn't this fairly usual for this age? I know that the lashing out is a problem. DH has already spoken to the teacher twice (and thinks that we need to be a bit more on top of consequences at home) and we have spoken to DS2 but it hasn't really helped. I do not want to do punishment at home if he gets into trouble at school because he's four and I think that's totally unhelpful, whatever response needs to be at the time (DH agrees). I am going to speak to them next week because I think we need to look at what's leading up to it and not just focus on the response. I guess I'm just a bit puzzled because I would have thought that the selective deafness and disagreements between children turning physical were quite normal behaviour for this age. Yes, it's misbehaviour, yes it needs correcting, but him being the worst/taking up most of their time really surprises me.

But maybe my perception is wrong? I just remember DS1 at this age being literally constantly in that hair trigger screaming dervish mode, not being able to cope with stuff like me turning off the TV, he wouldn't let me talk to other adults because he would be constantly running at me and being disruptive, and it wasn't happening 3-4 times a day but more like 10+ times a day. He was also a perfect angel at nursery and never caused any issues at all He has ADHD, explaining the extreme home behaviour, though I didn't know that until years later. And so do I, so it's not completely insane to wonder if DS2 has it as well although he is so much calmer that I had kind of dismissed this.

The only things he tends to refuse is when he's doing something annoying (like making a loud siren noise while playing) or sometimes he gets into this silly, hyped up state and seems to have a mission to annoy people

This sounds like stimming to me, not deliberately annoying others. So I can understand why he would refuse to stop. My son (he's 11 now) goes through phrases of the most irritating stims. Currently he slaps his own stomach repeatedly and it's a noise that really goes through the rest of us! We can now ask him nicely to stop and he will, but he genuinely doesn't realise he's doing it until we point it out. At 4.5 there's no way he would have stopped when we asked him.

when he had his 4 year check up he didn't want to answer the nurse when she was doing the language check, when he did answer he would only whisper, and when he was supposed to be balancing on one leg for the doctor he got distracted by inspecting some drawer handles.

These two things are also quite interesting. Whispering/refusing to speak to a nurse is not neurotypical behaviour. I would very much query a language/communication delay, which may or may not be linked with ASD. From other things you've posted I would want an ASD assessment though. Being distracted by inspecting door handles is also a behaviour that seems strongly linked. You say he's had a transport obsession, particularly noises. Has that ever manifested in a deep interest in the mechanics of transport, such as wheels etc? That is very common too.

It's interesting that you mention DH 'driving' strong routines etc too.

I think often, when we are ND or have a significant proportion of ND people in our household, we sometimes don't realise just how much we structure our family lives in ways that accommodate many 'needs' that NT people often don't have. Your description of your DS breaking down after a busy day implies this too: at home, there is less masking, less demand, due to the different set-up and built in accommodation of his needs. This isn't a criticism at all, but in my own family we realised quite early into DS2's diagnosis journey that we had been unaware of just how affected by his ASD he was, because we'd inadvertently been meeting an awful lot of his needs by applying similar strategies that we used with his already diagnosed older brother. It could be a somewhat similar situation for your family, OP.

Glad to hear you have a meeting set up, it's important for nursery to communicate with you as well as DH, or you'll never hear things first hand which isn't fair to you for your understanding. Good luck!

I’m sorry op. I concur with the others and the nursery, the other kids will stop and react appropriately to authority

Op I have 2 dc. One with an autism diagnosis one awaiting theirs. They are almost certainly going to get their own diagnosis-he’s on the (very long) list & we’re just waiting for an appointment.
Even though we expect their diagnosis to be the same, they are completely different children. They’re like chalk & cheese & always have been. All the tricks we learned with DC1 were useless with DC2. So I understand what you mean about not knowing what normal is. We had & probably still have no idea at all.

You mention;
”The only things he tends to refuse is when he's doing something annoying (like making a loud siren noise while playing) or sometimes he gets into this silly, hyped up state and seems to have a mission to annoy people…”

I wonder if the annoying noises is him stimming? My youngest does this (my eldest does not). He gains comfort from this and for the most part I’ve tuned out to this now at home. It’s usually something he needs to do rather than a choice.

My youngest also does the hyped up state thing where he’s under stimulated or over stimulated. It’s like he has shedloads of energy & needs to burn it off. We tend to try & direct this to something safe. We get him outside if we can or let him run round or do some deep pressure work with him.

The thing that jumped out at me is the fact he doesn’t respond to instructions from the other side of the playground, unlike the other children, and you describe selective hearing.

I think it might also be worth getting his hearing checked out. Is he lashing out or tantrumming at other children because he imperfectly understands their interactions - which would be of a piece with his lack of detail on why he does this when you ask him.

Just a thought. It needn’t be permanent but something like glue ear could be worth checking out.

I think during your writing of this, you have come to the realisation that perhaps he behaviour is difficult at nursery.

I think that at home, you have strategies in place that rely on your close attention, swift intervention and strategies that work. Also at home, the interactions with others are confined to parents and siblings, not a class full of children who will act in their own ways and perhaps these unpredictabilities are exacerbating issues at nursery. You also note that he never has accidents at home but does at nursery, possibly also due to his inability to navigate nursery as does home but also the fact that you can spot clues in his behaviour that mean you step in, guve him food, send him to the toilet etc.

I wish you luck in navigating this.. it sounds less than straighforward but it sounds like nursery are willing to explore ways of supporting him.

It does sound like something else going on.

His behaviour (and maybe speech?) sounds more typical for a child in a 2-3 year old class/group. In the UK you'd have a adult child ratio of 1 teacher to 4 children in these groups to manage that kind of behaviour.
A child in a pre-school/nursery class of 3-4 year olds ignoring the teacher and having 3+ lashing out incidents a day would be seen as pretty challenging.
4.5 year olds in Reception classes are definitely expected to follow instructions, stop when asked (this is a pretty hot rule at school! If the teacher says stop or rings a bell everyone stops immediately), lashing out repeatedly at other children would be seen as a big issue.

Well, I wouldn't say it sounds normal, but I will say I know a few children who were fairly savage at 4.5 (usually right before starting school) and seem totally typical a few years later. In their cases I would say they had outgrown the nursery/preschool environment and were ready for a bigger and more demanding setting.

Ask the nursery to be very honest as to whether they think there are additional needs here, in which case pursue assessment, or a lack of boundaries combined with a determined temperament. It is just possible that if nobody enforces a quick and simple "No" at home, he is taking the nuclear option when he meets it elsewhere. I have seen that in a friend who always favours the "gentle hands" "poor wall!" "let's see who can put their coat on fastest" school of parenting.

My twins with ADHD could be told to stop doing something from very young across from the playground without issue. It's not an ADHD trait to ignore. I also agree it sounds more like ASD than ADHD.

He passed the hearing test at his four year check up fine but I have wondered about hearing, because sometimes he will ask you to repeat what you've said three or so times and I wondered if he was struggling to hear.

Speech was queried at the check up because he is still not producing sounds S, F, and R. C can be a bit hit and miss. His doctor is really laid back though and said check again at 5. I suppose now it's been six months maybe worth going back to that. The same for the fact that he only draws scribbles and lines, he would not (could not?) draw a tree or house or person. I'll double check this with nursery. I do sometimes feel that I would push a bit harder than the doctor tends to, but never know when I'm just being over anxious.

We speak English at home and they speak German at nursery which he speaks and understands. If he doesn't understand something they try asking him in English, but in general he doesn't have problems. However this is why some of his grammar is a bit odd sounding because he will use German grammar forms in English and English forms in German, this is quite normal with bilingual children as I understand, and usually sorts itself out. It can sometimes be difficult to tease out speech development issues from normal aspects of bilingualism, but he hit all expected milestones for previous speech acquisition. He is generally shy around new adults, we always assumed this is because he tends towards introversion/pandemic effect.

I don't think the nursery discipline approach can be too lax if it's working for all the other children. I'm not worried about it. And he does hear no at home. I will admit I've struggled with boundaries, because I tend to be a bit of a people pleaser, but I have worked on this so much and become better at it. While we do pick our battles, like letting him choose who gets him out of the car when pushed for time, he doesn't get his own way all the time. There are plenty of instances where he just has to deal with it. (And we might be sympathetic or not, depending on the situation, our energy levels, etc)

Interestingly I was speaking to my mum about this today and she said that I had tics (stims probably) and anxieties around this age when starting school. I agree that the noises like sirens are probably stimming. She then told me to watch the Chris Packham autism programme because she'd watched it and related to it.

Yes, when taken all together I can see signs of ASD, it will be interesting to see if they are thinking along those lines too and I will see DS1's doctor the week after so might ask her at what point it's appropriate to look for assessment in younger children.

It can be difficult to see these things at home sometimes because you naturally know what 'works' for your child and you make lots of allowances and adjustments without even noticing.
Also often toddlers are 'quirky' 'difficult' 'challenging' but behaviour that's within the norm at 2 is outside the norm at 5, and you don't realise because your own child is still themselves iyswim.

My thought from your first post was possible ASD, already having neurodiversity in the family makes it more likely. Definitely worth considering I think.

That isn’t normal behaviour for age 4, no. I would expect almost all four year olds to stop when told to by a teacher from across the playground. I suspect he’s either autistic or has ADHD.

I've worked in a nursery class. Speaking to children calmly was pretty much my discipline strategy and it works for most children.

I would get a hearing test first. My daughter’s behaviour is very different when she can hear fully. Neither state is similar to your son, which may be individual differences or something else going on, but not hearing is very wearing and makes good behaviour more difficult especially in a group situation.

I would be wary of going down the route of letting him choose who does things/how they're done, as in your example with the car seat. Ultimately he is the child and you are the adult and he needs to understand that you make the rules/decisions.

I say this coming from experience with my 7yo. She was/is very argumentative and when she was younger we would always end up in some kind of compromise. We thought this was a good thing as everyone was happy but in the long run it was a really bad idea as she always thought she had "won", and she needed to accept that sometimes she won't!

We're also in Europe and start school later. And we had disruptions at kindergarten around age 5 too. We took her to be assessed and the dr said that it would be difficult to diagnose at this stage as it may simply be a case of needing the structure and routine of school. We were given some v simple and effective tools though. For example, DD used to be most challenging when asked to change activity so we asked if the teacher could give a warning. Just a simple "ok in 5 mins we will tidy up and then it is snack time"

It made the world of difference as previously (in her mind) she was being told to change activity immediately with no idea why. I.e. stop playing and tidy up. Now she knows when she has to do it and why, she can "get her brain ready" (her words) .

Since she started school where she has a timetable and knows what happens and when, she's not had any issues.

I would echo PP and suggest you look for an assessment though, not necessarily in terms of diagnosis, but maybe some kind of play therapy just to get more of an understanding of his thought process in these incidents.

@Mariposista
You have no idea what you are talking about!

As far as I know only in the UK children start school at the age of 4. (Which is to my opinion is very very early), all the European countries at age 6.
Just becouse they don't start school until they 6-7 it doesn't mean they behave like a 2 year old. I don't think in the UK is about what is beneficial for the child: is about the lack of governement support towards nurseries and working mothers.
Most of the countries have nursery 2-4 and kindergarden from 4-6.
It is a different system yes. But just becouse its not a school it doesn't mean they don't get the same education which is needed for their development. If a child at the age of 4 behaves like one at the age of 2 is nothing to do with the school/kindergarten. There are other issues (developement or at home).
You really think before you write anything like that about different systems!

I agree. This is not normal behaviour for children of this age. I have over 30 years experience as an Early Years teacher. If the kindergarten staff are telling you the other children don't behave this way then your son's behaviour is not the norm.

The behaviour your describing is more what I would expect from a 2.5 year old not a nearly school age child. Dc3 is 3.5 years old and doesn't behave like that at nursery or home.

However dc1 behaved very similar to your dc at that age. He was later diagnosed with ASD and ADHD. I honestly think you need to start looking at referring your dc for a neurodevelopmental assessment as he may well be autistic or have ADHD (or both). Earlier intervention and support is key for better outcomes so the sooner the better. In the meantime I would work much closer with staff on support strategies for him including sensory ones

Thanks all again as some really useful pointers here.

I have got hold of an ASQ for 54 months (4.5 years) and am going through that with him - out of interest more than anything as I'm sure they have their own assessment materials here. Slow going, because he answers "I don't know" to most of the questions I ask trying to listen to his answers.

Interestingly, although I said about the grammar thinking it was just German interfering with English (e.g. I like it not, rather than I don't like it) I think I've assumed this across the board, but the pattern of not using past verb forms (walked, jumped, played) is listed in there and I realise that he will typically use other forms such as "DS3 did break my train track" "Daddy was being naughty" or similar, or just talk in the present tense as in "That train is going very fast and it's crashing".

Judging by the experiences of friends, it's fairly easy to access/get referral to OT here so if that is recommended it sounds like it could be really useful for him.

The over/understimulation leading to the manic mood sounds right, I think this is what was behind it with DS1 who used to get into that state frequently, unfortunately I didn't really understand about over/understimulation until he had mostly grown out of it.

I wrote this earlier and brain is melting slightly with all the new info to process, so probably won't be back to this thread for a bit. But a positive story first. I had to pick him up early today for logistical reasons and he had just finished lunch. He was one of the last ones eating but he seemed happy and was sitting with one of his preferred teachers. She was encouraging the children to help clear the plates onto the trolley to go back to the kitchen. He was very enthusiastically and competently (meaning I assume that he does this a lot) clearing everything away to the right place on the trolley. Another, younger child was trying to help too and carrying a full water jug, which slopped some on the floor. DS2 instantly saw this and ran over to the place where the cloths are kept and started to wipe up the spill. He can be so helpful and cooperative, that's what I see of him, I think that's what I've been struggling to get my head around.

@BertieBotts I think is really the thing that's common with kids who are neurodivergent, whether that's ASD or anything else. When their needs are met they are delightful, whereas when things aren't, things go really really wrong, really quickly. Typical kids will manage their emotions at this age and sounds like your son is struggling.

I work in a preschool (UK so 2-4+ year olds) and I would trust the school on their perception. They will have seen 100s of children his age and know what is 'normal' or not. Of course, they will have a different expectation of him than 2 year olds.

There are 2 possibilities here:

• Your child does not understand authority figures and boundaries because you are overly indulgent and nursery can't undo that. (Believe me, we see this and whilst it is possible to teach boundaries in school, it is a lot harder when you're going against home training combined with certain personality types).
• Your child is neuro divergent.

I wouldn't be too quick to jump to neuro divergent as I would have thought school would have picked up on that too. It's a lot easier when you've seen many, many children to have a good hunch if it's parenting or intrinsic to the child. But do ask them and point out some behaviors which may be concerning you.

If the school are moaning about 3-4 incidents per day, can they expand on that in detail? That would be nothing in our preschool. I have kids where I need to intervene 20x per school day but each incident would be fairly brief. Are these 3-4 incidents taking a huge amount of their time? Is he hurting anyone? What are the staff ratios? In the UK it would be 8 kids per adult (at 4) so 3-4 incidents per day doesn't sound like that much.

If the school are moaning about 3-4 incidents per day, can they expand on that in detail? That would be nothing in our preschool. I have kids where I need to intervene 20x per school day but each incident would be fairly brief.

I think this is what my perception is too! I mean, I'm glad in a way if this is the worst they have to deal with, because it's better for all the children if there is less disruptive behaviour, and I will certainly work with them, but when I used to teach extracurricular stuff, with the disruptive kids it was more like 4, 5+ incidents in that one hour I will ask them. It's useful to have stuff to ask because although I agreed that the meeting was a good idea, I didn't really have a clue what to ask.

Would they say outright if they think it's parenting/boundaries do you think? Is there a good way to ask that won't make them afraid of offending me? I think that we do have authority and boundaries so I would be surprised if that was the issue but I could be wrong of course.

We do have a lot of staff at ours who are newly trained/in their apprenticeship year, it's close to a training centre so we get a lot of the new ones and a lot of staff turnover. Honestly that is my main complaint about the place because I think it's unsettling, but everything else is great. They are typically well trained and engaged with the children. I can't tell what the ratios are and can't find the documentation to check.

MonkeyTown I think we might know each other IRL? One of my friends had very similar advice for her DD anyway. I think I will ponder on this about who is "in charge" vs what he thinks. (I am the one with the redheads, if it wasn't totally clear already).

I have done the ASQ and it is showing concerns in the communication area though everything else is fine. I'll update again on Thursday after the meeting at nursery (and take this info to them to see what they think).