I have a hard time believing that DS2 is the worst behaved child at nursery. Perspective?

[BertieBotts]

Sorry for clickbait title - bear with me because I promise I'm not that horror parent who believes their child can do no wrong.

Anyway. DS2 is 4.5yo. We live in Germany so he's still at nursery (kindergarten), not school yet. I actually couldn't imagine him in school (August birthday, so would be young in the year anyway).

We've been getting reports for a few months that they are finding him difficult to manage. It's mostly around situations where he is asked to stop doing something, if he doesn't want to stop then he just develops this selective deafness and pretends nobody is speaking. It's irritating - he does it occasionally at home, and honestly, sometimes we get irritated and shout in response. When we manage to stay calmer then we would go in and interrupt or physically stop the behaviour (e.g. if he was annoying his brother) and/or remove him from the situation. We would then tell him not to do it and reiterate that he had been asked not to (DH uses the word naughty, I prefer to give a short explanation of why e.g. "That will damage the wall/DS3 doesn't like that") Usually this is fine and effective, sometimes he will retort back with something like "No it doesn't!" which I think is quite normal for four.

If the behaviour continues or argument escalates, then I would look more directly into prevention e.g. take the toy that is being used inappropriately away, suggest a different activity, do some problem solving esp between him and DS3 (1.5yo) if they are clashing over a toy or something.

Or DH is more likely to give a warning that he would be sent to bedroom (this is literally next door so is basically time out)/to sit on sofa/TV turned off. After this he would then talk to DS calmly and ensure that he understood the reason for the consequence.

Although I've described these as my vs DH's approach, DH does sometimes use my approach - mostly removing the problem item or suggesting something else or distracting DS3 away, I will do the warning/punishment occasionally but I prefer not to, because I find when punishment gets involved it just tends to increase his tendency to be argumentative/wind me up back and it starts off a whole spiral which is ultimately unhelpful.

It happens more when he is tired/needs a poo/hungry/etc so when there is a pattern of him being especially nuts we would generally try to get a snack/meal into him ASAP or insist that he goes to the toilet, and try to keep on top of these things in general, which does help. I also suspect he is a bit sensitive to noise and he does not like being in crowds of rowdy people, which might be behind the fact that it seems to happen more often at nursery.

When he is in one of these "discomfort" states he is also likely to freak out and lash out (hit/scream/fall to the floor crying) over the slightest misunderstanding as well (e.g. if you unzip his coat when he wanted to do it, if the biscuit breaks in half, if his brother sits in "his" chair etc) although we aren't really getting reports of this from nursery, at least not towards the staff, they do say that he will lash out "randomly" at other kids. I don't think it's totally random, but I can see that it might be happening with very little provocation or seemingly with no provocation, because quite frequently he'll mention some incident where another child has "done something bad to me" or "did owie me" or even stuff like "I don't like those bad boys" but when you press for details he insists that he can't remember or he doesn't know, or he changes the subject. If you ask whether he told the teacher it's always no, they never know anything about it if you ask them directly, and stuff like when he was potty training he would have accidents and we'd say well did you tell the teacher that you needed to go to the toilet, and he'd say no. Sometimes I'd turn up to get him and he'd be wet because he'd not told anybody he'd wet himself. So my assumption is that he's getting into a disagreement of some kind (which might well be his fault, I'm not meaning that he's some put upon victim!) and, lacking the skills to deal with it maturely but also lacking the inclination to ask an adult for help.

German/nursery approach to behaviour/boundaries is like our initial response - talk to child calmly about their behaviour, they don't really do time out/punishments etc (though sometimes they will separate children into different rooms or take them elsewhere to calm down).

But anyway - here's the thing I'm finding strange. They report that this is happening approx 3-4 times every day, and that he is the child who is taking up the most teacher time. Apparently, the other children stop when asked to stop from the opposite side of the room/playground. I think that's unusual at four. (The children are age 2-6). I think DS is a bit stubborn but basically totally normal and even fairly easy - you can generally reason with him as long as you catch it early enough and he hasn't dug his heels in. I can see, as I've been writing this out, that it's quite possibly the "random lashing out" at other children which might be more of the 3-4 issues per day. Because this doesn't really happen at home, I hadn't really connected this, until I'd written it out here. I'd kind of written this off as just children squabbling.

But isn't this fairly usual for this age? I know that the lashing out is a problem. DH has already spoken to the teacher twice (and thinks that we need to be a bit more on top of consequences at home) and we have spoken to DS2 but it hasn't really helped. I do not want to do punishment at home if he gets into trouble at school because he's four and I think that's totally unhelpful, whatever response needs to be at the time (DH agrees). I am going to speak to them next week because I think we need to look at what's leading up to it and not just focus on the response. I guess I'm just a bit puzzled because I would have thought that the selective deafness and disagreements between children turning physical were quite normal behaviour for this age. Yes, it's misbehaviour, yes it needs correcting, but him being the worst/taking up most of their time really surprises me.

But maybe my perception is wrong? I just remember DS1 at this age being literally constantly in that hair trigger screaming dervish mode, not being able to cope with stuff like me turning off the TV, he wouldn't let me talk to other adults because he would be constantly running at me and being disruptive, and it wasn't happening 3-4 times a day but more like 10+ times a day. He was also a perfect angel at nursery and never caused any issues at all He has ADHD, explaining the extreme home behaviour, though I didn't know that until years later. And so do I, so it's not completely insane to wonder if DS2 has it as well although he is so much calmer that I had kind of dismissed this.

I teach this age range. You say you're surprised there aren't others behaving like this or worse. Speaking from a UK perspective I have to say I would find the kind of behaviour you have described very unusual at 4.5

He sounds very like my eldest in behaviour. He has a developmental language disorder and is almost certainly autistic. The failure to communicate his needs is very familiar. DS also came out wet from nursery as it wouldn’t have occurred to him that he should tell an adult he needed the loo or had wet himself. He would never tell tales, his sister hurt him today and even at six he didn’t call for help but pushed her back, she (probably NT) immediately screamed “mummy DS hit me”

You have a strong genetic history of neurodevelopmental difficulties and a child acting more like a toddler with nursery reporting issues, I’d definitely be thinking There was something else going on. I’d also wonder if he behaves better at home because you are so good at accommodating his behaviours and setting him up to do well. I know how much we accommodate DS without even thinking it before you realise how other same age kids just aren’t so much work.

I'm not trying to be defensive, I'm trying to understand where my misperception has come from, because I don't think it's helpful if I go into a meeting with a totally skewed impression and go merrily oh no, at home he's fine! Perfectly behaved all the time! If that's not a realistic picture.

You have to understand that I really thought DS1 was a totally normal child and it was just that his normal 2-3 year toddler period was carrying on and I just assumed that was how long it lasts. I didn't know that his behaviour was extreme at the time, because he was my first child, he apparently masked all through nursery and school and didn't have any siblings. I also didn't really know other people with children his age, thinking about it, my friends from toddler groups had younger children. I just thought I was shit at coping with it. It was only when I had DS2 ten years later and he became a toddler and you could tell him no and he would listen some of the time and I thought wait, they can actually do that at 1 year old? Then I started to realise that DS1's behaviour as a toddler/younger child had been unusual, and felt quite bad that I'd not got him assessed sooner. But it's quite possible that I still don't have a good barometer of what normal is, because my only experience of four year olds is firstly ten years out of date and I've probably forgotten, but also non standard in the first place.

He does go all day, 8.30-4. He's tired when he gets home.

Your perception is WAY off. I’ve been a TA in a class of this age, this would be very bad behaviour in that age cohort. You need to be firmer. You don’t have to be a brute but your current approach is doing him no favours. Other children simply won’t want to play with a child who behaves like this. Negotiations with 4 year olds doesn’t work. You tell them what is acceptable, you don’t have to explain why, that’s only allowing him scope to argue back.

It doesn't sound like he's a brat, but it does sound like he has some additional needs that the nursery have identified and would like to help him with. He reminds me a lot of my lovely DN at the same age, who has autism and is currently 9 years old and doing brilliantly academically and socially at school with a few small adjustments.

Hi Op. I mean this kindly and am mother of three myself. I think the ‘selective hearing’ needs attention. Your 4.5 yr old has an older sibling with ADHD and a younger sibling of 1.5 yrs. Nothing wrong with that but it’s very likely a busy hectic household. Perhaps you could focus in on ensuring your ds listens when you speak to him and follows simple instructions and you wait to see that he does? Ds should get recognition and sense of satisfaction for cooperating. Can be pleasant instructions, doesn’t need to be negative eg turn off tv. Look for frequent opportunities to work with him cooperatively eg baking or gardening or tidying together, or getting tea ready. IFSWIM ? Maybe he will turn out to have SN, but maybe he has just not had enough practice at tuning in and following instructions with your positive calm attention on seeing this through, so he can learn self control and teamwork.
Try not to be too shocked about the feedback from nursery. Take it as an alert to something and an issue which is better tackled calmly and consistently sooner rather than later.

OP, I’d ask him to be assessed. What you describe isn’t typical at his age - don’t forget the preschool staff are experienced professionals and if they find his behaviour unusual, then it is. I’d move on from thinking ‘worst’ behaved and consider what they’ve identified in terms of extreme or unusual.

Apparently, the other children stop when asked to stop from the opposite side of the room/playground. I think that's unusual at four.

It's absolutely not. At 4.5 I'd expect most children to stop when told to from a distance (assuming that the person calling to them uses their name) especially if they've been at nursery for some time, where these things are trained into them.

This is all very interesting, thank you. I honestly didn't expect to see so many people make comparisons to their children with ASD or ADHD.

2.5 would be when he started nursery. He was supposed to start at 2 but really struggled and then there were COVID lockdowns so ended up restarting the process at 2.5. He would hold in everything that happened for the time he was at nursery and when he saw me come to collect him he would burst into tears as though he was letting everything out. This went on for about three months. (I'm doing settling in with my youngest now, age 1.5, and he does not do this. He will seek comfort from the staff while there and is happy to see me when I return.) The staff were surprised/concerned sometimes because it would be as sudden and intense as though he had hurt himself, but I just saw it as his way of processing.

He was clearly quirky with obsessions -buses, trams. Used to play at being a "door gate" ie the barrier. He had noises for every part of the bus.

It's hard to say whether he's improved in terms of emotional development because his language has improved so much that it often feels like he's made improvements but I don't know if it reflects a change inside. I remember there was a phase of him talking about being worried a lot. He is much better at coping with things like the TV going off or a drink being spilled - that would have been disaster at 2.5. I'll go back and watch some videos when I'm not in a room with sleeping children, because I didn't write down the "negative" things like tantrums and whining.

I'm running out of battery and need to go to bed so will read further posts in the morning but thank you to everyone, even if I haven't been able to respond directly. Really helpful. Thank you.

One of my little ones is Autistic and you could be describing him. Just to say that Sensory Integration therapy with an Occupational Therapist really really changed his life. So much more regulated with his emotions. Might be worth a look.

I don't think comparing children is helpful regardless of whether they could be ND or not. I've got two, they are as different as chalk & cheese. You have to parent the child you've got and that might mean different strategies for each child. I think a good discussion with nursery and investigating a diagnosis would be a good course of action.

My eldest is in reception and this doesn't sound anything like the behaviour of her or her classmates. My youngest is 2.5 and is in a hitting stage and while I accept that it's a normal stage with a 2yo, we're working hard to stop it including speaking to the nursery about any triggers.

I don't think it is normal or acceptable for a 4yo to be lashing out at other children. I think either you need to try some stronger discipline techniques or get you child checked out for ASD or ADHD. Regardless, I would experiment with some other behavioural strategies after discussion with the nursery to see if it is just behavioural rather than something deeper. At 4yo your child should be able to understand the consequences of his poor behaviour.

I saw his teacher this morning and the meeting is set up for Thursday. Now I'm in observation mode, I've noticed that (to save time) we let him choose who opens/closes his car door and helps him with his seatbelt, because he kicks off if the wrong person does it.

I thought about this asking him to do things but generally, he follows instructions perfectly fine, especially if he can see the sense in them. I must ask him to do dozens of things in a day, pass me this, get your coat on, sit here, give that to DS3, explaining the rules of a game etc. The only things he tends to refuse is when he's doing something annoying (like making a loud siren noise while playing) or sometimes he gets into this silly, hyped up state and seems to have a mission to annoy people, and the other area I've noticed, which is mostly why I think he wouldn't be ready for school, is any kind of formal writing type activity. I have a few around and sometimes he asks to do them but then he'll be particular about which parts he wants to complete. Or a painting set we were doing together he seemed to get bored and just go outside of all the lines. And when he had his 4 year check up he didn't want to answer the nurse when she was doing the language check, when he did answer he would only whisper, and when he was supposed to be balancing on one leg for the doctor he got distracted by inspecting some drawer handles. Doctor was not concerned by this btw, he just smiled and said he's curious and it's a good thing.

I don't think that our home is particularly chaotic, (but again, I might be wrong) DS1's ADHD is extremely mild and he doesn't have any behaviour problems now, the main way it manifests for him is disorganisation and poor time management, a bit too much screen time, sensory/diet sensitivities. I have been struggling with household tasks but have been really strongly prioritising this recently, got rid of loads of stuff and now it's all much more manageable. DH is very involved and plays with them, takes care of them etc. He's much better at routines than me so he deals with mornings and drives the bedtime routine, we don't shout/argue (yes occasionally shout when stressed by kids but try not to, I think this is quite normal though) we don't drink, smoke, hardly ever have people over, house is warm and safe, not a show home but not a hoarder cave, they have plenty of food, a bit too much sugar (DH) but I try to keep on top of this. I can get a bit overloaded and basically check out during certain points of the day, but I'm there if they need something and I try to give some focused attention to each child. We have got into a bad habit of having the TV on in the background a lot which I'm trying to cut down at the moment to see if that helps, but they aren't sat in front of it like zombies, they usually just play with it on. Weekend days we go outside and do different things, we even have active toys in the flat from lockdown, a slide, balance board, tents, tunnels (these aren't out every day, usually they have clear space which 4yo uses to make giant train tracks every day).

In terms of whether he's told "don't do that, it's naughty" or "don't do that, you will break it" I honestly don't think this makes any difference, it's splitting hairs. He will argue back just the same if he's in the mood to argue (if you tell him something is naughty his usual retort is no, YOU are naughty). I don't have a problem with the word naughty, I just don't like using it because I prefer to be more specific. I think there's room for both DH's more traditional approach and my more alternative one and they both have strengths and weaknesses.

Is he speech delayed? A 4.5 y old saying “did owie me” seems unusual. Perhaps he’s experiencing communication problems and is becoming frustrated?

I think you need to ask what they are doing to help correct the situation at kindergarten and then follow suit at home. That’s really all you can do isn’t it?

His behaviour at home doesn't sound that unusual. However, his behaviour at nursery does sound unusual. Children usually behave much better at nursery than they do at home and are pretty good at following instructions . I would definitely be considering if he has some additional needs.

A four-year-old is probably quite capable of working out that he can get away with absolutely anything he likes at nursery if the worst thing anyone there will do about it is to sit down with him and have a gentle chat.

He does sound a bit ADHD to me. I have a 2 children with a duel diagnosis (ASD & ADHD). My eldest's ADHD presents like your eldest - disorganisation, time blindness, poor executive function.

My youngest is more boisterous and does the annoying people thing (unintentionally). He is loud, or physical (getting in your personal space) or destructive - and telling him off doesn't always work or can even makes him worse. I have noticed just how often we spend correcting him behaviour and how much negativity he must hear from us and presumably school. It started to affect his self esteem and he would say things like "I'm stupid, kill me now". I dont think he meant or fully understood or what he was saying, he was just trying to tell us how bad he felt about himself. He started medication last summer and his behaviour has improved massively - whilst medicated at least, once it wears off his back to his usual self! But also his self esteem seems to have improved too.

Hi OP, it seems likely your DC2 may be neurodiverse but just very different in personality to your DC1.

I also thought I must be crap at parenting and it took a while for me to realise that was because I had an extremely challenging child to parent.

She was diagnosed with ADHD and ASD at 7 but we didn't have the issues with nursery and school because she masked there.

Disagreements with the other parent over discipline are common when DC are challenging. We nearly split up over it.

It sounds like the nursery are on it, which is good. You also have time on your side in the German system.

If his expressive or receptive language is delayed, speech therapy? Or maybe there are sensory issues an OT could help with.

Why be cryptic? Be explicit - what do you think nursery should be doing?

Ultimately the question is: why would nursery say he is at the more challenging end, if it wasn’t true? They have no incentive to say this. In fact it is a very difficult conversation to have with parents and many childcarers would avoid saying it until absolutely necessary (ie until the child’s behaviour is causing real problems).

I think it is worth going down the assessment path. What is the downside? If you discover he has additional needs then much better to know now before school. If the assessment says he doesn’t then you’ve lost nothing by investigating.

I was wondering that too, you’d expect a 2 year old to say something like that, definitely not a 4 year old. Has his speech been assessed op?

OP this is going to sound like a really stupid question... does your DS speak and understand German? Is it his first language?

I also agree with this. And the obvious hearing check too, if that’s not already done as part of the regular check ups in Germany

I'm sorry OP, you must be really worried. It does sound a lot more like ASD than ADHD. I would definitely get it checked, I know Germany has some good options for additional support, much more than you'd get in the UK.