Niece misbehaves and sister excuses her behaviour

[Busybee140]

I have a 2 year old. My sisters dd is nearly 3. My sister’s dd has bitten, hit, head butted, thrown toys at my lo. She’s not very good at sharing either. My sister attempts to discipline her, but it’s very inconsistent and often appears to be received from my niece as attention (possibly positive reinforcement). Her husband is less than useless. I’ve tried to offer suggestions on a consistent, more effective way of discipline without wanting to sound like a know it all, I know I don’t. I know my mum thinks discipline methods are not ideal, but we are an anti-conflict family, so it results in my mum being subtle and ignored and me biting off my tongue. Rather interestingly she often preaching her parenting methods to me.
I know my sister loves my lo and feels bad, but I find it infuriating when over the years my sister has made excuses for her daughter’s bad behaviour. (E.g. tired, teething, over excited, an accident the list goes on). It’s my baby who is hurt and her making excuses makes it feel like she is not taking it as seriously as she should and it makes me feel worse.
They will be spending less time together because my niece will be starting nursery in January. I wished I said something sooner like last year, although would this have changed anything? Now I don’t know whether to see what things are like once she starts nursery or whether to say something the next time it happens. My sister is really difficult to communicate with so I know saying something will end in a massive row, but I don’t want my lo to keep on getting hurt and I don’t want my lo to pick up my niece’s bad behaviour (we have been lucky she hasn’t so far). What should I do? Does anyone have any similar experience they can share?

@H34th it’s not as simple as saying don’t spend time with them. We are from a large close family. Does that mean my kids have to miss out on family occasions, time with grandparents etc. because I have to keep them apart? In addition, saying to my sister we don’t want to spend time with them because of her child would come across very judgemental in my opinion. Or if we weren’t to tell them anything at all and were just starting to avoid them, how would we respond when my sister asked why? I think could be a lot more damaging to the relationships.
I am not judging her parenting in any respect, apart from having an opinion on an issue that directly impacts my LG. If my niece bit a stranger’s child, would it be ok for the stranger to have a view? I’m confused by some of the posts that seem to indicate that because it’s my sister I should not take a view on this, or not do anything (especially in case my LG starts any of these behaviours)
it’s a very difficult situation to navigate, I need it addressing to protect my LG. I want to do it in a way that will be the least damaging to our relationships. I would love to hear the experience of others who have successfully navigated this situation with a sibling’s child.

Well I do feel for you and obviously it's not a sensible suggestion to say 'just don't see her'. She's your family and you want to see her. There are just a couple of sticking points.

Again I may be reading things into this which you aren't saying but there is no need for any harshness with any toddler. At just turned 3 she is entirely malleable and this could be easily addressed with just clear communications which do not upset her and which should not be seen as punishment. There can be a black and white way of looking at child-rearing which I believe is unhelpful for toddlers. It's not a 'discipline/ punish or let them get away with it' binary.

I have just wondered if your crossness at your sister (which is actually really natural if she is doing something you perceive as not protecting BOTH children in this situation) is making you want your niece to be treated more harshly.

Alongside that though, my own sister was a nightmare with her kids who were slightly older and much, much, much bigger than mine (relevant as the damage they could do to my kids was therefore significant). My sister knew they were not well behaved (indeed my eldest niece was nearly 'expelled' from nursery) yet she left them unattended around other kids all the time. We had to watch out like hawks for years and years. This enabled us to, e.g. pull our children off the slide before 5 year old niece pushed the off from the top. Occasionally my sister would swoop and yell at her kids and threaten consequences (losing tv time for example, she was never violent). Then she'd go away and the kids would revert to what they'd been doing before. The actual threatened consequences almost never materialised.

From when our were tiny instead we took the 'watch our closely and remove them from any situation which was dangerous to them or others' approach. This meant we could deliver the right teaching immediately and meant that our kids were a gazillion time better behaved. We did not leave our kids in any way unsupervised with other kids until we were confident that our own kids would respond in OK ways. Obviously you're not leaving a 2 and 3 year old unsupervised but I mean even taking your eyes off them for a couple of minutes. I do love my sister to bits and I know that her stress at being effectively a single parent with an undermining and insulting OH was part of the dynamic. As teens now we still watch our youngest closely as the cousins still do not behave in ways we always like (e.g. 16 year old on the phone to her friends when my son was in the room age 11, talking about buying drugs. I don't want an 11 year old to hear that and I'd expect a 16 year old to know that - also of course I'm concerned about my niece in that situation). It sounds like you might need to be very closely monitoring your DD if the other parent - whoever they are - is not ensuring that their child does not put others at risk of being hurt. It makes it less relaxing than it needs to be as the babies get older but if things carry on as you fear, then that is just how it has to be.

I think you are overestimating the possible impulse control of a tiny child - a three year Old's brain is not the same as an adult or even a school age child.

It is very normal for 3 year olds to push boundaries - I suspect you will find out when your dc are at that stage.

I strongly doubt the difference in behaviour between the two toddlers is due to your superior parenting, they are just at different developmental stages.

You’re being ridiculous.

also, any nursery like you claim that has ‘behavioural expectations’ for A THREE YEAR OLD would never see any child of mine (I personally wouldn’t send a 3 year old baby to nursery, but hey)

@howmanybicycles thank you for responding, I’m sorry to hear about the challenges you have had also. I definitely think like you we have been more vigilant and that has saved our LG from a couple of things. Even though she doesn’t understand why she is being swooped away from the dolls house or whatever she was playing with or doing at the time it’s preferable to a physical injury.
You’re right that my frustration is with my sister and not my niece, I think I adopted your use of harshness in my reply as I can see how from other’s point of view a consistently firm approach could seem more harsh than one that has evolved to include more explanation/a gentle approach but still with a clear message etc.. I personally don’t view it as harsh. I think firm is how I would describe it. Even when we have corrected my niece in this way she does not show any visible signs of upset (she’s not crying, no pet lip, no running away or hiding) she just usually stops in her tracks and looks as though she is listening, sometimes looking at my LG hard to describe how, but I guess kind of remorseful. As soon as they are together again we go back to positive reinforcement for them both, that was kind to share, well done/ good listening etc.
When my sister steps in, it’s what happened, have you been overexcited and a cuddle is given, or food if she thinks she’s hungry etc. so even a softer/less firm message that the behaviour is wrong is missing. I think you’re right about us needing to be more vigilant, it will make it less comfortable/relaxing and will probably curtail the total amount of time we spend together if things were different, but thank you for acknowledging it’s not as simple as simply not seeing each other.

@Stompythedinosaur I have nowhere said I think I’m a superior parent. I have a view on this particular issue as it directly impacts my LG. I have not compared the behaviour of the two either. I’m trying to address a behaviour where my LG is getting hurt.
My LG is not my only child so I have experienced this age before, but as I put in my OP I still don’t think I know it all, I don’t think anyone does.
in some of my responses to others I’ve said I appreciate that sometimes it’s a phase, kids have their moment etc. but does that mean that it should go unchecked just because they struggle to regulate their impulses? i think the issue I have with the pushing of the boundaries as you suggest, is I don’t feel as though any boundaries have been set in this case. Indeed what I have observed in my opinion is positive reinforcement. My frustration is at my sister not my niece, if she set boundaries it might not happen at all (as other posters have said they’ve found in their circumstances) if it does it would hopefully be less frequent.
the behaviour of my niece is targeted at three people my LG being one of them, that to me shows there is at least in part an element of impulse control that she has learned in that it’s not directed at everyone.
I would be interested to know at what age you think anything should be done about this? At what age they have sufficient impulse control to be checked for this behaviour?

@SunflowerGirl91 I think what I like about the nursery is they have expectations that children won’t bite, hit etc. of course kids will be kids and they know that, but they work with the parents if/when these things happen to deal with them. I find it reassuring that my LG will go somewhere where they won’t have unregulated biting, hitting , head butting etc. and where my LG won’t have continuous injuries from such unregulated behaviour. I think that’s the benefit of parents being able to choose where their kids go, we can all pick somewhere that we are comfortable with for our own.
At what age would you send a child to nursery? I thought 3 was fairly standard and late in some cases now where some get free hours earlier.
Do you want to clarify your first point? You haven’t said in what way? Obviously I don’t think I’m being ridiculous otherwise I wouldn’t have posted. I’m looking for constructive responses and unfortunately limited statements such as this are not.

@Busybee140 your post is about how you don't think your dsis is adequately parenting, and you point out how your family agree. It has an unpleasant tone.

Your business is your own dc. You are perfectly able to keep them safe from a 3yo. Just keep a close eye, as you would at a playground, or soft play.

I am very skeptical that your dsis is doing nothing. It sounds like you want them to be more punitive, but that is not the only (or the best) approach for small children. Intervening, distracting, redirecting are all legitimate.

@Stompythedinosaur the post is about the specific incident that impacts my LG. Not about her parenting in general. I’ve already said if my LG was not the one getting hurt, this would be none of my business either.
Absolutely my child is my business and her being hurt is my business too. I’ve already said we are extra vigilant and this has saved my LG from a few incidents already, however as we are a close family and we spend a lot of time together I don’t think my frustration at my sister is unjustified as my LG doesn’t understand why she is the one being swooped up and removed.
I have already said a number of times I don’t think punishment and discipline are synonymous. I’ve already said my DS is doing something, but in my opinion what she is doing is positive reinforcement of this behaviour. I completely agree there are alternatives and appropriate times to use them, but my point is none of these methods have been used.
I am genuinely interested in your view on the questions I added to my last response:
I would be interested to know at what age you think anything should be done about this? At what age they have sufficient impulse control to be checked for this behaviour?

If you've already given a helpful clear message though, whatvis the problem with your sister not reiterating it? In the example you give in thr last post, it really does sound like your sister has done the right thing. You've already given the needed message and then she's looked at what might be behind the reduced impulse control, tried to address any needs and tried to help her DD have the language to express things such as hunger, pain, tiredness.

@howmanybicycles I don’t think there is an issue with a multi approach. If my niece is in pain or whatever we absolutely do not want that and that needs to be addressed also and of course a greater under of her triggers would help my DS know how to support my niece. My issue is that my DS does not address the behaviour, her approach is to comfort her DD without any clear message that biting, head butting whatever is wrong.
I have found in my own personal experience that once boundaries are established any firm no, can be a lot ‘less firm’ and alternative approaches can be very complimentary. Of course kids will be kids I’m not unrealistic when it comes to them pushing the boundaries and it not always being straightforward.
I think it’s unfair for my niece to be expected to know that her behaviour is wrong and she should not do it when that clear message has not been delivered. Indeed in my opinion it will be harder to address behaviour that has been (probably unintentionally) reinforced.

My issue is that my DS does not address the behaviour, her approach is to comfort her DD without any clear message that biting, head butting whatever is wrong.

But you've already given that message in your example. The behaviour has therefore already been addressed. My question was about why you want your sister to repeat it. I'm really struggling to understand what your concern is in the example you gave? In your example it sounds like you behaved appropriately and then so did your sister.

@howmanybicycles in that example I was explaining how my partner needed to step in to deliver the message of no, which is really not our place but we have had to resort to this. I definitely don’t think she needs to be told no off everyone in fact that would be counterproductive, so fine in that instance. What I perhaps have not explained very well is that is my sister’s approach regardless of whether my niece has been told no or checked for the behaviour by someone else or not. Therefore, when my DS is dealing with the issue, or is the closest, or reacts first, my niece does not get a clear message that the behaviour is wrong/she shouldn’t do it etc. So in a separate example that probably better explains the approach, my niece bit my LG on the leg, it was quite a nasty bite. My DS scooped up my niece and said, what happened? Are you hungry? My niece said she was so my DS went and got her an ice cream. (She brought an ice cream for my DD too) but I was flabbergasted that the message to me seemed to be, you bit your cousin so you must be hungry let’s get you an ice cream. There was no clear message of no or a model of what ‘good’ behaviour should have been, even an explanation of you must tell mummy of you need a snack. This has not been an isolated incident.
i was left consoling my DD sobbing.

Your second example is much clearer. If this were happening a lot I'd not let the girls play together. At that age they tend to play alongside rather than together anyway so doing it 10 feet apart will not be too big a deal.

@Busybee140 I apologise for calling you ridiculous, that wasn’t on. I just think you’re expecting a level of behaviour from this child that you’re never going to get. She is 3, she cannot regulate her own emotions and has no impulse control. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think your child should be hit, bit, scratched or anything else for that matter, but the only solution is to avoid your children being together until your niece has grown out of this behaviour. It cannot be corrected because she doesn’t know she’s doing anything wrong, despite what some people will say (she does know or she’s just being “naughty”).

I personally plan on homeschooling my child. If (a big if) we did send them to school it wouldn’t be until he was 5. To me personally, they’re still babies/toddlers at 3 and the only people they need are the parents. But of course I appreciate not everyone thinks the same way as me and there’s some that don’t have a choice.

you cannot stop a child from biting etc - even the best nursery on the planet can’t stop it. I woild be asking your nursery how they prevent this behaviour because they’re either 1) lying or 2) they’d use fear/punishment, in which case why would you send your child there? Regardless, your child will come home with bites scratches and bruises on occasion, sometimes regularly, because that’s what kids do at that age. It’s all part of learning.

@howmanybicycles this is what we are trying to do. We’re using distraction techniques, offering different toys, but it’s sometimes difficult because they gravitate towards each other and toys often appear more attractive when someone else is playing with them. It does make it less relaxing spending time together, but it’s a small price to pay if we can save my LO from some hurt.

@SunflowerGirl91 i know that children that age struggle with impulse control, but I genuinely believe it is not too young to start teaching boundaries. Of course they will have their moments and push against them and it might take some longer to understand than others. That’s why my issue is with my sister not with my niece. If she tried to consistently address the behaviour and it still happens, we would just have to accept that it is a phase and hope it passes sooner rather than later, however my fear is that what my sister is doing is reinforcing that behaviour. The example I provided to another poster was one where my sister got my niece an ice cream after biting because she was hungry. No explanation that biting was wrong or anything. Obviously my LG is still only 2 so it’s early days, but my DS, we did start early, and in my experience he showed signs of understanding the boundaries we put in place. Definitely not saying he was perfect or never tested the boundaries, of course he did, but we did see improvements with him and other posters (of course not all) have commented on success with boundary setting at this age too. I’m certainly not naive to think it would work for all children and/or all of the time, but I don’t think that’s a reason to not deal with the behaviour and in this case (probably unintentionally) reinforce it. I’m genuinely interested to know at what age do you think they are old enough to start having boundaries set when it comes to this sort of behaviour?
I don’t think never seeing my sister or niece until she’s past this is a viable option for us as it’s not as straightforward as just stopping seeing each other. We are a close family, they share grandparents, there are family occasions where it seems unfair on my kids to have to duck out of all these things. In addition, even if we went down that route, if we were suddenly avoiding them all the time, that would inevitably result in my sister asking why, which would lead to the dilemma I initially posted, which is saying anything I suspect will result in a rift. This would be a huge shame for our girls and indeed all of us, who have been really close and could be quite damaging to relationships moving forward even once this phase has passed.

Yes homeschooling is quite a different choice to nursery. We feel nursery is the right choice for us personally.

The nursery don’t say that no incidents will ever occur, of course they would never be in a position to do so, as kids are kids and things happen. I think for me, it’s more that they address with the parents that incidents will be dealt with, they set boundaries, not punishments, use of positive reinforcement and addressing behaviour explaining that you don’t do that and then work with the parents when it arises. I find it reassuring as a parent that they are attempting to maintain a safe space where this behaviour is not unregulated. My DS absolutely thrived at nursery and the staff were fantastic. Of course, kids are going to come home with bumps and bruises, indeed my DD thinks she can do everything her big brother does. She loves climbing on anything and everything so she already has had quite a few. It’s more that if my niece’s behaviour was checked and not (in my opinion) positively reinforced it might not happen or might not happen so frequently and I think as a parent my child is not getting any valuable learning from being on the receiving end of this all the time, in fact the learning could be negative if she starts to copy, so I would prefer if at all possible for it to be prevented or at least a genuine attempt to prevent it and then we deal with it if there’s no improvement.

I don't understand why people say here it's ok to a 3 years old to bite, hit and throw things at an other child. Yes, they do that, it's part of they development, but the fact that your sister does nothing about it, is not ok.
My nephew (2and half) was constantly hitting my daughter (10 months old) this summer while we were visiting. My sister had this theory that if she doesn't acknowledge his bad behaviour, it will go away (obviously, it didn't!). Tried to talk to her, but she didn't think that it was a big deal (I'm sure she would of if my child did the same to hers). The only thing I could do is to see them somewhere other than their house, as my nephew was shy and better behaved outside his comfort place. He started nursery a few months ago, his a little bit better behaved outside his home, but still goes wild around my sister. Because he can and he knows it!
A 3 years old is not a baby and it is a perfect time to learn about how to behave around other children. Your sister needs to realise that and also that her child behaviour making your uncomfortable. Try to see them outside their home (playgroups etc.) where your niece is not only playing with your daughter so she might be less physical.

If you want to carry on seeing your sister and neice then you kinda have to accept that these things are going to happen? You either 1) stop meeting up with the kids or 2) continue meeting up but accept it’ll happen. You have every right to disagree with how your sister parents, but she has every right to parent how she wants.

the ice cream situation - your neice would probably have not put two and two together. Again, not getting an ice cream because she bit your LO half hour ago is punishment. It’s not boundaries. If she was 12 years old then yeah fair enough but she is a toddler.

again - what boundaries can a nursery put in place to stop kids biting and hitting? They can’t. Unless they separate all kids at all times they cannot do it. It happens too quickly.

Children at age 3 should know that biting, scratching and throwing things is wrong. They should know by then not do those things. I agree with you OP that your sister should discipline her dd. I think that until your niece can be trusted to play nicely, you just have to supervise and intervene when necessary.

So your child was bitten and you stayed for ice cream?

Why didn’t you remove her from that situation and leave?

Why didn’t you say to your sister - we’ll return when we get an apology!

You need to advocate for your child and you are doing a poor example of that.

Stop blaming your sister, if she wants to raise a child with behaviour difficulties who will have no friends shes doing a good job - if you want your DD to understand being treated poorly is acceptable and your stay there - you aren’t giving her a good message are you?

Not everywhere.
Not everyone lives in England.
Other countries can be 6, even 7.

Here in Scotland it's 4.5-5.5 years old (the intake runs from March to February birthday dates, so never younger than 4 and a half years old and often the Jan/Feb birthdays delay a year to start school in the August at 5.5 years instead).

@Busybee140 in your original opening post you say your niece is "nearly 3" but in your subsequent posts you say she's 3.

Which is it?

@Tina8800 thank you. I have been genuinely interested in what age those who are saying 3 is too young/ you need to accept it/ they have no impulse control etc. at what age they believe that something should be done about this sort of behaviour. I think you are right about meeting outside the homes/grandparents, when we have been to play cafes and parks it has reduced this sort of behaviour.

@SunflowerGirl91 I’m interested to hear how others have navigated this situation, as I have already outlined why the first option is not viable for us and the second option reads as though I just have to let this happen to my LG.

the ice cream situation was not half an hour later, it was immediately after. I’m not even saying my niece shouldn’t be fed if she is hungry, it was more the fact that there was no explanation that we shouldn’t bite. The behaviour was not acknowledged at all.

im still genuinely interested in your view at what age this behaviour should start to be addressed if 3 is too young?

They don’t put in physical boundaries, that would be impossible and would remove many benefits of socialisation that the children learn in this setting, but as part of that learning they deal with the behaviour if and when it arises. I’ve never said that they will not have a single incident or even a few, it will happen, but I like their approach to dealing with it.