Niece misbehaves and sister excuses her behaviour

[Busybee140]

I have a 2 year old. My sisters dd is nearly 3. My sister’s dd has bitten, hit, head butted, thrown toys at my lo. She’s not very good at sharing either. My sister attempts to discipline her, but it’s very inconsistent and often appears to be received from my niece as attention (possibly positive reinforcement). Her husband is less than useless. I’ve tried to offer suggestions on a consistent, more effective way of discipline without wanting to sound like a know it all, I know I don’t. I know my mum thinks discipline methods are not ideal, but we are an anti-conflict family, so it results in my mum being subtle and ignored and me biting off my tongue. Rather interestingly she often preaching her parenting methods to me.
I know my sister loves my lo and feels bad, but I find it infuriating when over the years my sister has made excuses for her daughter’s bad behaviour. (E.g. tired, teething, over excited, an accident the list goes on). It’s my baby who is hurt and her making excuses makes it feel like she is not taking it as seriously as she should and it makes me feel worse.
They will be spending less time together because my niece will be starting nursery in January. I wished I said something sooner like last year, although would this have changed anything? Now I don’t know whether to see what things are like once she starts nursery or whether to say something the next time it happens. My sister is really difficult to communicate with so I know saying something will end in a massive row, but I don’t want my lo to keep on getting hurt and I don’t want my lo to pick up my niece’s bad behaviour (we have been lucky she hasn’t so far). What should I do? Does anyone have any similar experience they can share?

@ChangedmynameagainforChristmas i can’t comment on other threads as I haven’t had time to see any but my own today/recently, but what I would suggest is that what might appear/seem ridiculous to you can be genuine and real concerns for others. If someone (as I have done) have posted on an anonymous thread to ask for thoughts and advice it’s obviously significant enough for them. You have within your gift to be kind and/or simply ignore those that are in your opinion ridiculous. It makes it a lot nicer/safer environment for everyone especially for those who might be dealing with a lot.

OP is your niece 2 or 3?

I'm a little confused about what you want your sister to do. Is it just to say 'no biting'? or do you want her to remove her from the situation? or take away the toy? If it's the biting, then can you say that as you're removing your DD? i.e. "no niece, no biting"? And if the argument is about a toy, take the toy with your DD when you move her? Would your sister have a problem with that?

Most children will do those things but it's how their parents/carers handle it and making excuses isn't, IMO the correct way.
Your DS should at least be explaining to your DN that that type of behaviour isn't acceptable, more so now as DN will be starting nursery soon. Lets face it not every parent who's DC will be in your DN class at school may take to kindly to their DC coming home with bite marks and bruised heads.

@Pixiedust1234 We are (myself, partner, my oldest and my mum) very vigilant when they are together and have been able to save my LO from a few incidents. As I’ve said to another poster, it’s hard when my LO does not understand why they are the one being removed, but of course better that than them being hurt.
My sister and I have very different parenting styles and I absolutely do not pass comment on what she does at all. When she has extensively explained the reasons for my niece biting my LO, I have once said out of exasperation after a particularly nasty bite “could you try saying ‘no we don’t do…’” This is in contrast to her approach that I have found her asking her what happened and was it because she is she tired, or hungry or whatever other reason she thinks might have caused the incident. This is only because it concerns my child too, although my suggestion was not acknowledged and she explained what she does.
I often find that the unsolicited parenting advice is given to me from my sister. I don’t react because I’m happy to take or ignore advice as I see fit.

Of course you can discipline a 3 year old!

What fresh nonsense is this that you can't? By that age they can understand that biting is wrong and if they do it they will get a punishment.

The infants at my son's school are having major issues with behaviour atm and I swear it's down to parents under lockdown who didn't do discipline with their toddlers and never said no to them and it's all coming out in the wash now.

The insanity of saying a 3 year old is still a baby and can't be disciplined! I'm not sure many nurseries would go along with that.

Thank you@UWhatNow . A high volume of the replies have commented on the age being too young, so it’s reassuring to hear that others agree there should be discipline at this age.

My nephew was similar to your niece, and my SIL had mentioned to me he's been kicking other kids at playground, they were 3 at the time. One day my daughter was lying on the floor playing, and he walked over and kicked her in the face. My loud, stern "No!" and raging face was enough and he didn't do it (to my daughter anyway) again. He survived, and my daughter knew I'm on her team. SIL wasn't pleased but neither was I, with the face kicking. It doesn't matter what your sister thinks, it matters what your daughter thinks.

If my sister approached me to address my child who’s only a year older than hers and still learning I would honestly not take it well and suggest you stayed away from us if my lack of parenting to your standards bothered you that much, just because she doesn’t parent like you doesn’t mean she’s wrong, if her child is criticised this much then I too would be defensive and make excuses. There is still time for yours to turn into a little monster too so maybe hold back on your comments and focus on your own parenting.

I can’t disagree more with posters on here. My ds went through a biting phase at nearly 3. I nipped it in the bud straight away. Time out, no excuses. He came to understand that the behaviour would not be tolerated and stopped.

@momlette (I love your username) I get it probably is just a phase and any child can go through it, but when my LG is on the receiving end and getting hurt it’s hard not to think about it and wanting it to be addressed.
Indeed I have thought my LG might reenact some of these behaviours too. I’m also a huge advocate of ‘people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones’ and when you have LOs you are very much in a glass house as you don’t know what’s to come.
I do agree that I’m probably overthinking it now as I feel I have missed the boat not openly addressing it sooner. When my niece starts nursery they will spend less time together, and hopefully the nursery environment might support the phase coming to an end.

@bigfamilygrowingupfast thank you. I love my sister and my niece and don’t want them to find themselves in this position with nursery and/or other parents, but as other posters have pointed out it’s not my business. It’s just a really difficult situation to be in.
I do feel as though it’s my business when my LO is getting hurt and as you said other parents would/will be letting my sister know so I feel as if I should/should have too.

@MolliciousIntent you’re right I did say nearly 3. I drafted this post a short while ago as I was in two minds whether to post it all. I missed that in the edit before posting. She is 3 now.
I have never said my sister is doing a bad job. She is my sister and I love her. Yes she has a different style to me, but I said on my OP that I do not know it all and I don’t think or would say I’m a better parent. In this specific issue that has direct consequences for my LG I want it addressing.
If only a simplistic solution would work life would be so much easier, I love my niece and my sister and would hate for this issue (although significant for me and my LG) to mean that we have to sacrifice otherwise very good relationships. Also, it’s complicated by being a close extended family and how we spend time together as a whole for big family occasions etc. visiting our parents etc. does this mean we have to duck out of everything to the detriment of all our family relationships and my children.
I think this solution also doesn’t account for the fact that I am considering if saying anything about this issue would get us any further forward or just result in a row. I think telling my sister I don’t want anything to do with my niece (which is not the case) would be quite inflammatory and not saying anything would hardly go unnoticed if we were to avoid them.

@howmanybicycles my niece is 3 now. I drafted the post a little while ago as I was in two minds whether to post anything at all. I missed it in the edit.
I want her to consistently tell my niece that, no we don’t [bite/hit/headbutt] whatever she has done. If that doesn’t work she could try consistently removing her. We have sometimes told my niece ourselves or my mum has, I think it works best when my partner tells her as she idolises him and enjoys playtime with him too, but my sister then normally scoops her up and proceeds to comfort her asking what’s wrong and offering a range of ‘reasons’ as to why she’s acted in that way. She then often goes on to explain to me what a terrible night sleep she has had or any other ‘justification’ she wants to offer.
I know kids will be kids and she could try everything and it might not make any difference but when my LG is getting hurt I really just want something more consistent and firm to be tried.
The toy issue is more my niece throwing toys at my LG, my niece often isn’t bothered about the toys she throws (I.e. they’re ones she is not playing with). Fighting over who has what toy isn’t usually an issue, they are quite good at figuring that out thankfully, and if it’s going to escalate we step in with an alternative toy/distraction etc. It’s been more that my niece throws toys at my LG, which is harder because it’s unpredictable, sometimes hard to intervene before it happens and my sister tends to ignore it or deal with it in the same way as the more serious biting etc.
If we say no to my niece she doesn’t say anything and I assume she doesn’t mind, but she then does still try to offer explanations for her actions. It makes it worse, particularly because the reasons are what every child goes through and doesn’t alter the fact that my child has been hurt (it also feels as though she is trying to minimise it and in someway justify that my child has been hurt in the process, although I think she is doing this because she feels bad, I know they both love my LG).
I understand my niece is still little and kids go through phases, but I just want to see that it’s been consistently addressed without what I perceive to be positive reinforcement. If and when these things still happen (all kids have their moments) at least I’m sure that we have dealt with any avoidable incidents to save my LG from hurt that could be avoided.

@Crumpleton thank you for your reply. It’s such a difficult situation. I don’t want to create a rift, but I do want my LO to be saved from this hurt if possible.
You’re right about my sister experiencing this being flagged at nursery if it happens there or by other parents. I don’t want that to happen, but also putting myself in the position of other parents it’s bad enough this happening with my niece who we love, and when we/one of us are there to console my LG. I would hate to think something like this happening when I’m/my partner are not there to console her.

@RedToothBrush thanks for responding. It’s reassuring to read that others agree that discipline is appropriate still at this age. Luckily my oldest was a bit older during lockdown so handled it quite well. My LG was in the making so did not miss out on some of the socialisation some of the slightly older kids did.
It does make me nervous that my LG could be potentially at nursery with children whose parents think they are too young for discipline. Thankfully the nursery was great with their expectations when my DS went there and I got the same feeling when I visited for DD, although we still have a while before she will start.

I think it works best when my partner tells her as she idolises him and enjoys playtime with him too, but my sister then normally scoops her up and proceeds to comfort her asking what’s wrong and offering a range of ‘reasons’ as to why she’s acted in that way. She then often goes on to explain to me what a terrible night sleep she has had or any other ‘justification’ she wants to offer.

Can it not be both of these things? Those reasons might be genuine in the sense that they are stressors for your niece. That does not make it OK but one of the things children need to learn is that regardless of how well they slept they have to control their behaviour. At 3 they can't really do that very well. They develop that ability more as they get more mature. I don't know if I am understanding this well but it sounds like you are asking for quite a punitive response towards a very small child? There are other ways to teach children right from wrong and might it be that your sister is taking those? I don't mean just letting them get away with it but a clear 'no' rather than timeout for example (we never used that and have well behaved children).

@MeredithGreyMatter thank you for your response. I’m so sorry to hear that happened to your LG. You are right about my LG, she comes running over crying mummy mummy mummy wanting me to fix it. My partner especially steps in to discipline my niece when he’s there. He works with kids that get excluded from mainstream school, so he’s well versed in a more firm approach. I think this is probably the way we need to go. Addressing it ourselves with my niece and see how we get on. I do feel as though the times we have really made a difference by how my niece has responded, it’s then been under mined with my sister then comforting her and asking her why she did it and offering possible reasons. You are right though. It’s probably more important that our LG sees that we are supportive of her and there for her, even if we can’t ultimately resolve it completely.

Your DS really isn't helping her DC when it comes to her going out into the big world and mixing with others, by not teaching what's right and what's wrong.
I speak as I found working at a school where these type of children were either the school bully and no one wanted to sit next to or play with at break times.
Hopefully once your DN starts nursery the teachers won't let her do the same to the children there.

OP I wonder whether you can challenge your assumptions about how a family 'has' to work and actually talk to your sister? I may be wrong but I wonder whether she finds your approach harsh and dismissive? A small child who is upset can be comforted whilst still giving them a clear message about right and wrong. Your OH works with much older children and and approach suitable for a 8 year old is not the same as that required for a person who has just turned 3. You may both be worried about each other's approach and if you spoke you could perhaps move to a place which feels more comfortable to both of you.

@Thatboymum thanks for your response. You have put yourself in my sister’s position. I’m not trying to say that my child is an angel, they all have their moments. I have an older child too, but I don’t think anyone is an expert, my OP said I don’t know it all and I certainly don’t. What would you do if you were in my position? Do I just have to avoid the issue when my LG is getting hurt because one day she might do it to someone else? I’m not judging my sister’s parenting, her parenting decisions are hers, but in this specific incident where my LG is getting hurt and has been on a number of occasions, I do feel as though I can have an opinion on how it is being handled.
My sister who has a child one year older than mine, frequently offers parenting advice to me. I just choose what advice to take on board or not as I see for. I still don’t view it as my place to offer unsolicited advice so I don’t. Hence this thread, I want the issue resolving for my DD, but question whether speaking to my sister will actually get me anywhere. I literally don’t feel I can do nothing in good conscious when I am responsible for my LG.

@drkpl thank you for your response. What’s reassuring is that most people who say they addressed the behaviour, it did resolve it or at least improve it. I think that gives me faith as the alternative others are suggesting is that it’s going to keep happening, almost a no hope situation and at best we have to try to block it from happening ourselves, either by keeping in between them or keeping them apart. Neither would foster the relationships I would want my DD (and DS) and DN to have as cousins.

Your parent your child - watching her and keeping her safe, choosing who to spend time with.

Your sister should be allowed to parent her own child without being scrutinised and judged. Sounds like she's already having a difficult time with her kid, no need to make her feel worse.

@howmanybicycles i definitely don’t think punitive is what I’m after. I don’t think discipline and punishment are synonymous. We do a lot of positive reinforcement for ‘good’ behaviour with my own two and my niece. Regularly praising good behaviour and a firm no and statement of what ‘good’ behaviour is like. “No, it’s nice to share the toys,” if the incident is a squabble over the toys etc.
I think that’s the issue I feel we have. My sister does not consistently do a firm ‘no,’ I absolutely agree that now she is getting older it’s possible to do more explaining that she will understand, but the way my sister scoops her up, comforts her and offers reasons for what she has done, even if they are genuine reasons/triggers does not allow my niece to comprehend that what she has done is wrong and shouldn’t happen again.
i think if she said to my niece, I want to understand why you hurt your cousin, are you hurting etc.? And then this was followed up with I know your xxxx is hurting, but we do not [xxx], but it doesn’t take that form. It’s a lot more comforting for my niece with little to no reference to the ‘wrong’ behaviour, as though she has done nothing wrong. I think a firm ‘no’ and a short explanation in my experience has worked best with my two, although my LG is still young and I appreciate its not always a one size fits all.
I think it’s important for both the hurt child and the child who hurt the other that the situation is not prolonged. Short, and firm for the child that did the ‘wrong’ behaviour and consoling for the child who was hurt. Then we move on.
I have not had to do time outs with either of mine either (again LG is very young still, so still time for that to change). Timeouts are not what I’m looking for my sister to do. I know they have been effective for others when they have been old enough to understand the concept and my niece might be getting to a point where she can comprehend that now, but I certainly don’t think that needs to be a starting point. A consistent, firm no is all I’m looking/hoping for.

@Crumpleton thank you. I really hope she gets past this. She is a lovely, smart little girl. It’s just these behaviours that occur with my LG that are hard to cope with. I hope she gets past it, because I really don’t want her to be the child that no one wants to play with, that would be heartbreaking.
She loves my LG and always asks for her, but then these things happen.
a couple of times when I have asked my LG if she wants to go and see her cousin she says no. She loves her too, but already I think she sometimes does not always enjoy her company and who can blame her when these things happen.

@howmanybicycles my partner does not deal with my niece in the same way he does the older kids, he does it how we do it with our two, I just meant the firm no approach comes more easily to him. i would love to have an open conversation with my sister. I suspect based on previous (non children related discussions) that it would end in a row. We have very different communication styles and whilst we are very close it’s very hard to negotiate disagreements when they happen, often resulting in us agreeing to disagree which wouldn’t help here. I can see what you mean about my approach could seem harsh to her on comparison with her own, but I would have no issue with her approach at all (indeed it would be none of my business) if it wasn’t impacting my child. I also feel as though what she has done to date in my opinion is positive reinforcement and that a ‘harsher’ approach will be needed now she is 3 and it hasn’t been addressed so far.
I think i have hesitations about speaking to her which led me to post this thread because if it is not well received (which I strongly suspect it wouldn’t be) we would then have an atmosphere that would be awful for the girls too without getting any closer to a resolution. I think if it continues I’ll have no choice but to say something, it’s just whether we can get through the next couple of months without incident until my niece starts nursery, then hopefully it’ll be a phase that passes and/or the nursery environment might address some of the behaviours. I definitely regret not saying something before now, but that ship has sailed.