Where am I going so incredibly wrong?

[Secondchildregret]

Ill start by saying we have a tiny house and noise travels; you can hear our baby(11m)&toddler(2y) crying wherever you are.

Our second born is dramatic, loud and whiney and always has been.

He still wakes up 7 times per night.
As soon as you drop off to sleep he is screaming waking you up again.
Ive had an absolute fuck full now.

11 months of constant 7 times every single night waking up and screaming. He still demands a bottle in the night between 12-2. Doesn’t matter how much milk he gets in the day doesn’t matter how much food he gets in the day. Doesn’t matter how much or little nap time he gets in the day.

every.night.is.the.same.shit

Our 2yo was similar but we paid a sleep consultant and they were our saving Grace and taught us A LOT. We’ve tried everything they advised this time around and nothing is working.

We can’t escape. Even sleeping in another room you’re awoken by his screams.

We’ve been to the doctors about every possible problem multiple times over the (almost) last year. Im just wishing the time away until he’s moved out. We both regret having another. We haven’t woken up naturally (either of us) once since he was born. It’s ALWAYS screamed up in some emergency sounding panic but in reality he wants his dummy or something.

My senses can’t take any more of this torture.

@Secondchildregret I had the same. On what turned out to be excellent advice, I took DC to cranial osteopath. One treatment, you could practically see it working (relaxed body, etc) and then slept so much better. From what you've said, you have nothing to lose by giving it a go.

Take away the milk - he doesn't need it. My daughter was still waking at this age and as soon as I "put my foot down" and stopped giving her milk she stopped waking. He's gone without milk before so he definitely doesn't need it.

Also take away the dummy - my friend's son was a dreadful sleeper and it was because he'd spit the dummy out then wake up crying for it (this continued until he was 4!!!). As soon as the dummy had "gone to the Easter bunny" he slept through no problem.

White noise? Is there a possibility he's hearing things in the night that are waking him but you're sleeping through them?

What are his naps like in the day? I think if he had a 2/2.5 hour nap at least through the day he would almost certainly sleep better at night.

My eldest also used to get herself v worked up until she vomited but it didn't last long (maybe 2 nights?) until she started to self soothe. It's not a "popular" option, but you have GOT to put yourself first so you're able to be there for both your kids (and your partner) and ensure you're getting enough sleep.

Hope this helps :)

Or, you go away to a hotel (or anywhere!!) for 2-3 nights & let your partner shit the door...

SHUT!!!!
Not shit!!! Sorry!!!

I don't think controlled crying will help , I think it's definitely medical, reflux or something, needs gaviscon. I have reflux and it's really uncomfortable.
Maybe put a pillow underneath the cot mattress to raise it a bit too. X

Second cranial treatment too. X

We had this with DS. Everyone said ‘controlled crying’, Ferber, yadda yadda. We tried We tried it all. Just did not fucking work. He didn’t sleep through the night until he was about 3 and a half. And still only falls asleep at all with melatonin drops. He never sleeps longer than 7 hours a night unless he’s ill. He’s 5.5 now.

Gives me the fucking rage when people tell you a kid ‘should’ sleep through by X age. Our DS was Diagnosed ASD last year and likely to get an -additional diagnosis of ADHD.

Apparently I was the same as a baby. I don’t think my mother has ever forgiven me!

Not entirely sure how it happened for us, but each of our twins ended up with a comforter item that they could find / manage on their own, and which they associate with sleep even at 5yo? For one it was a cuddly toy, for the other it was a specific mini blanket. Though different items, they both worked because they were big enough to find in their beds by themselves in the night, so would get a bit of crying then they find their comforter and go back to sleep on their own, or we go in and give them comforter and then leave.

we tried contro,led crying with one twin with some, but not complete success - reduced number of interventions, but didn’t eliminate entirely. As they became more independent, we allowed them into our beds if they woke in the middle of the night - neither encouraged not discouraged and each have gone through different phases of wanting to sleep in mom’s bed. Basically whatever optimises sleep has been our philosophy.

it will all pass, but it seems never ending when you are in the middle of it. One twin has always been the bad sleeper, despite getting the same treatment. I think on some level our sleep patterns and preferences are inherent, and as a parent all you can do is try to manage their environment as best you can.

Can you afford a night nanny for a few nights to try and break the cycle? Your situation sounds so desperate and unsafe for you. I’d go so far as putting the cost on a credit card in your position if needs be. Wishing you well

I agree

Anyone here calling anyone a monster on sleep training and letting a baby cry has clearly never been pushed within a mm of the edge. OP you sound like you are chronically sleep deprived bordering on being a danger to yourself and your kids.

Ignore attempts in this thread at guilt trips and sleep train that kid. Get that consultant back in if it helped with number 1. Let him cry, this cannot go on. If he vomits go in and change sheets and walk out. Layering sheets and waterproof sheets is a godsend as you can just strip the soiled sheet and walk away. You sound like you’ve had the Bub checked out numerous times and nothing is physically wrong. Ignore those here who have clearly never been pushed to the brink of a mental breakdown and sleep train him. I can send you research and evidence against any long term harm of doing so.

I haven’t read the whole post, my apologies if I’m repeating ideas.

my daughter didn’t sleep through till she was almost 3, it was horrific as I had another child 16 months older as well.

Things that helped a bit-
— white noise. Back in the day (🤣) I had a cd and I literally knew how long I’d sat there with her listening to it as there was a blip at 43mins in. These days, you can get phone apps - my daughter now sleeps every night with ‘brown’ noise.

— swaddling. Similar to a weighted blanket for an older child, my daughter loved the sensory compression of swaddling.

— night light

— sensory toys - she sucked a toy rabbit’s ear constantly, loved stimming on the tag blankets (small blankets with labels attached all round)

All of this helped a bit, but didn’t solve the night time wakings. I feel for you so much, it is brutal. Even now, over 10 years later, I still can remember the never ending Groundhog Day exhaustion.

"Gives me the fucking rage when people tell you a kid ‘should’ sleep through by X age."

Yep! It's ghastly and soul destroying.

Maybe he is in a discomfort that isn’t visible? Try mctimoney chiropractic they are specifically trained to work with infants on alignment and skeletal issues.

Sorry - I realised I’d spent an hour of precious sleep time on my phone so went to sleep.

Few things from the extra reply’s (thank you I really do appreciate it):

We looked into cranial osteopath when small (yes he was EMCS and came out screaming, the consultants said it was unusual and gave us an extra check the next day because of it) but I didn’t want to risk it after reading some outcomes.

It’s not a case of ‘giving in’ when he wakes for milk he won’t go down without it, no amount of cuddles/rocking/shhing/leaving/patting etc will do. The cries will get louder and louder until vomit and of milk.

He does vomit a lot, if our eldest has a bug or something and need both our attention for a few minutes and baby starts crying he will almost always work himself up to vomit within a minute or two. He was investigated for sandifer syndrome because of involuntary spasms he was having but they abruptly stopped one day (also checked out IS).

Neither me or DH have been assessed for autism but people have mentioned it to us over the years (separately) that it might be worth checking out, never did see the point because we don’t have an difficulties getting through life (until this?).

We tried everything related to reflux when he was small and none of it improved - tried the wedge under the cot mattress, we started on gaviscon which then turned into omeprazole when it didn’t change symptoms, tried different milks, lactase drops, pro biotics, coleif, gripe water on and on - like I said he also showed signs of sandifer syndrome but that abruptly stopped. He didn’t take to solids well and after 3 months of choking and gagging even at purées the GP referred us to SALT but he time our spot rolled around he was swallowing better so they just told us it’s probably resolved itself.

maybe someone nailed it with - he’s just crap and being a baby..

What does a night nanny do?
If we’re in the house we will hear it, it’s minute and the walls as thin.

You can't go on on so little sleep. Does your consultant do overnights or can your hire a night nanny for a couple of nights and childcare for your other toddler in the day for a week or two?
Then you and husband after having a night or twos decent sleep can do night weaning, the bottle just has to go because it's training him to wake up. Wishing you all the best and hoping you have more sleep soon xx

Thank you, this is very kind.

If you suspect highly sensitive/autism what about those weighted sleep sacks or tummy pressure bands you can get like the "transition from swaddling" ones? I'm not generally keen as I think they are probably a sleep hazard but in a situation like this would definitely try.

I do understand that it's not sustainable but I don't think leaving him to cry for an entire night is an option either. No problem with sleep training, but that is not sleep training. It probably won't even work and will make you feel shitter. He is obviously waking up for a reason - keep persisting until you work out what the reason is.

It doesn't sound like traditional sleep training advice is working at all so I would bin all the guilt trips like "the bottle is teaching him to wake up" (I think this is BS anyway but particularly here)

Sorry I am not familiar with the allergy formulas you tried - so apols if this is repeating stuff you've already done - dairy is not the only issue and often many of the dairy alternatives such as soy, oat etc can still cause an issue. May be worth going back to allergy clinic if not everything was screened for, especially since he also had issues eating solids. I think there's a step after the fully hydrolysed, amino acid?

Do you just have one dummy in the cot? If DD couldn’t find one we would have to go into her but we have like 6 in the cut now so she can always find one in the night herself. It was the best thing we ever did!

I'm sorry you are going through this, it sounds awful.

People have already given much more helpful advice than I can (my DC was a poor sleeper but not to this extent...), but there's two things that I can think of which haven't yet been suggested.

The first is tag-teaming - one night on, one night off. If you're both getting a few uninterrupted nights a week, it might help you continue functioning. Either that or do shifts like you do with a newborn - someone takes the evening shift until midnight and does dinner/bath etc., the other person takes the night shift. Given how dangerously tired you sound right now, I think the entire family needs to be focusing on maximising sleep.

The second is to absolutely physically exhaust your DS during the day. I'm sure you already do a lot with them both (well, as much as you can being bone-tired), but get him out of the buggy crawling and moving whenever and wherever you can. When my DC was on the move, we'd go for long walks and DC would crawl happily alongside the buggy for ages and just completely wear themselves out (you do need something on to protect hands, obviously). DC then slept a lot better at night (having been a very poor sleeper as a baby) due to pure exhaustion.

Sorry, just seen that someone had suggested tag-teaming 😬- I agree that a few chunks of uninterrupted sleep would make a big difference!

Mine were terrible sleepers and at the time I thought it would never end. I would cry with exhaustion doing even the simplest of tasks.
It slowly slowly gets better I promise.

There's sleep training and there's leaving them to scream all night and not going in to help a baby .... One is fine, one is cruel.

What the actual fuck.

OP is it 7 times every night or does it vary? If it’s less some nights then is there anything different that’s happened during the day when baby has a better night?

I’m probably clutching at straws here.