Where am I going so incredibly wrong?

[Secondchildregret]

Ill start by saying we have a tiny house and noise travels; you can hear our baby(11m)&toddler(2y) crying wherever you are.

Our second born is dramatic, loud and whiney and always has been.

He still wakes up 7 times per night.
As soon as you drop off to sleep he is screaming waking you up again.
Ive had an absolute fuck full now.

11 months of constant 7 times every single night waking up and screaming. He still demands a bottle in the night between 12-2. Doesn’t matter how much milk he gets in the day doesn’t matter how much food he gets in the day. Doesn’t matter how much or little nap time he gets in the day.

every.night.is.the.same.shit

Our 2yo was similar but we paid a sleep consultant and they were our saving Grace and taught us A LOT. We’ve tried everything they advised this time around and nothing is working.

We can’t escape. Even sleeping in another room you’re awoken by his screams.

We’ve been to the doctors about every possible problem multiple times over the (almost) last year. Im just wishing the time away until he’s moved out. We both regret having another. We haven’t woken up naturally (either of us) once since he was born. It’s ALWAYS screamed up in some emergency sounding panic but in reality he wants his dummy or something.

My senses can’t take any more of this torture.

[Namechangetime89]

@strandedabroad that sounds different to what you put above about letting them cry so much they vomit but still don’t pick them up or comfort them?

[MolliciousIntent]

@Namechangetime89 so what are you suggesting OP does to fix it? She can't keep on like this, waking 7 times a night - sleep deprivation is a torture technique for a reason!

[ReeseWitherfork]

Wonder how long it would take an 11 month old to stop crying by itself? I reckon hours. If at all? Most adults can’t calm themselves down from hysteria, don’t know how a baby verging on toddler is supposed to do it. Especially if they make themselves sick. So yeah…. Just a wee bit fucking abusive.

OP best thing you can do is keep things as consistent as possible, be rigid with your routine and your boundaries, and wait for it to pass. Best way you’ll survive it is by taking as much of a break from it as possible.

[noideawhatsuits]

@Namechangetime89 you've clearly been lucky not to have a child who wakes so frequently that you are so tired that you are a danger to yourself and others. As @strandedabroad has said, sometimes short term pain is better for everyone than long term pain. My little girl is a very happy wee thing now, MUCH happier during the day now she gets a decent sleep. And much happier now her mummy isn't a complete mess.

[strandedabroad]

@Namechangetime89

@strandedabroad that sounds different to what you put above about letting them cry so much they vomit but still don’t pick them up or comfort them?

All I said was if they vomit of course go in and check on them and clean them up. Nowhere I said not to comfort them, but the idea is they learn to go back to sleep without a crutch.

What else is she going to do? Sleep with one eye open for the next however many months/years?

He won't vomit more than once or twice, he'll learn to calm down and he'll never remember about it.

[SarahAndQuack]

@MolliciousIntent

@Namechangetime89 so what are you suggesting OP does to fix it? She can't keep on like this, waking 7 times a night - sleep deprivation is a torture technique for a reason!

I don't have any issue with controlled crying, when it's not taken to extremes, but even so ... come on. Waking at night is what you do when you have a baby Of course it's rough. But claiming it's torture is absurd. A baby isn't deliberately doing something to hurt you. It has no idea of anything like that.

[Pipsickl]

@balzamico

Just a thought but maybe you are waking him if he hates being touched etc? Maybe try putting toddler in with you and him in a room on his own with a monitor obvs) so it's totally quiet.
It may not help but you've nothing to lose

This might be worth a try - my babies both slept so much better out of our room

is there anyone you can ask (grandparent etc) to help out for a couple of nights so that you and your husband could get a full nights sleep? Then think about tackling some sort of sleep training?

I had this for the first 4 months of my daughters life and honestly I’ve never been more miserable and was losing my mind. You really do have my sympathy.

I needed to get some unbroken sleep before I could re assess and get a plan in place. The unbroken sleep was the key part.

then I would suggest what another poster has said. About ear plugs and taking it in turns with ur husband to each have a lie in. Go in with the toddler if you need to.

my husband and I sometimes would split the night too, so I could always count on some unbroken sleep.

hope this gets better for you xxx

[SarahAndQuack]

He won't vomit more than once or twice Have I missed something? I don't understand how you know this.

[Namechangetime89]

@MolliciousIntent The long list of things I suggested in my first reply… I also have a 13 month old waking up a lot and a three year old so I get it

[Ravenclawdropout]

Do you have the money to go private and see a pediatric specialist asap? I would eliminate all medical avenues before trying any other methods. Allergies could be the issue. I know a couple of moms whose children were diagnosed autistic at two and both screamed non stop from birth. Autism often is correlated with gut issues.

[Cadot]

It sounds like an absolute nightmare OP. I wonder if you could get the sleep consultant back in again? Or is there a private sleep school anywhere near? They might have some other ideas for particularly intense little bubbas like this.

My initial reaction is that you would be best to get rid of the sleep props like the dummy and the night bottle, because he's using those to get over to sleep, so screams when he doesn't have them. But that's easier said than done when it's the thing that will still the apocalyptic horror show screaming in the middle of the night!

That's why I think a handhold and some support from a calm, well-rested expert might be a good shout.

[MolliciousIntent]

@Namechangetime89

@MolliciousIntent The long list of things I suggested in my first reply… I also have a 13 month old waking up a lot and a three year old so I get it

None of your list actually fixes the problem though, does it? The child is still waking screaming 7 times a night. And from OP's post they're doing most of it already and it isn't helping.

[Icecreamandapplepie]

I'm sorry, I know its hell but your youngest isn't even one yet. Work together and know this will pass.

Your lo needs comfort, some need more than others.

You're right in the thick of it now. It will get easier. Very gradually, but it will.

[Namechangetime89]

@noideawhatsuits my youngest is extremely wakeful and my oldest didn’t sleep through until 22 months so you’ve got that wrong

I have learnt to manage it through a combination of things I posted in my first reply.

Yes baby may not remember it and you may think it’s helped her be happier etc etc but I think my long term relationship with my children and their long term mental health and attachment is worth having to jig around how I get the sleep I need while they are so little.

In no other circumstance would we be suggesting it’s okay for people to cry by themselves for so long it makes them vomit and then to just clean them up, don’t talk to them and put them back in the same situation they were upset about us barbaric and would, quite rightly, be front page news if it was happening say in elderly care homes.

Yes it’s inconvenient that they wake up - but that’s what’s biologically normal for babies, protects them from SIDS and is something most people can manage for a short amount of time if they can be creative with how/ when they get enough sleep.

[Icecreamandapplepie]

And like a pp said, our oldest was like this. He just wasn't good at being a baby. Got easier with every new milestone and new thing he could do.

He's the most lovely 8 year old now.

Please hang in there, and know this phase, like others, shall pass.

[Namechangetime89]

@MolliciousIntent

None of your list actually fixes the problem though, does it? The child is still waking screaming 7 times a night. And from OP's post they're doing most of it already and it isn't helping.

It fixes the problem of OP not getting enough sleep? It’s irrelevant how she gets the sleep as long as it’s enough for her to safely function.

Anyway, I don’t want to derail the thread any further. OP good luck to you - I hope you continue to find a caring way for you to get enough sleep & sending solidarity for the nights ahead with wakeful little ones.

[ittakes2]

My son did not sleep through the night until he was 4.5 years old, and I had many sleep consultants and I read many books.
I don't think this is behavioural. It sounds like something is an issue for him. If you have seen a GP I am guessing you have covered reflux and diary allergy.
Was he prem and / or born by C section?
I think the best thing you can do is take him to a cranial oesto who has training to work with babies. The birth process can be brutal and babies can be left with physical problems - tight muscles, pinched nerves - BUPA paid for cranial oesto for my son because its a medically proved thing how stressful the birth process can be on babies.
Also google infant reflexes not going dormant - which can happen to anyone but is an increased risk with prem babies or babies born by C section. Its very interesting you say he will only sleep by himself he might have sensory issues and the programmes for infant reflexes not going dormant might help.
I am sorry I feel your pain with lack of sleep unfortunately I can confirm you will get used to it but it is not good for your health. There were nights where I hired an overnight baby sitter to help with my son so I could sleep more.
It might be also worth asking the doctor to try nutramagin dairy free formula (prescribed for free on the NHS on the recommendation of a peds doctor). My son was born at 36.4 weeks so a bit prem but not much - apparently his digestion was the same as a 32 week old though and his first issue as to why he was waking up crying and he was having trouble with digestion and it was causing him pain. Nutramagin literally resolved that bit overnight.
One other thing I recommend you do is draw a picture of his body and methodically go through each part asking yourself if you think he might have any issues with any area. Another issue my son had was he had unseen excema and at night his body was heating up and triggering the excema to be itchy. We only noticed it once my husband took him into the shower with him and his head and his body showed up in pink spots which faded when his body cooled.

[BishFish]

One of my DC was like this. Nothing worked for her that worked for the others. She didn’t sleep through until she was 3, and then still had disrupted sleep and nightmares.

We didn’t have any developmental concerns at the time, she met all her milestones and was bright, if a bit sensitive. However she developed severe anxiety at primary school, and was diagnosed with autism at 9.

Please don’t leave your DS to cry alone - if there turns out to be an underlying reason for this then you might find it hard to forgive yourself.

Is his dummy pinned on with a dummy clip? At some point he should be able to locate it himself if he wakes looking for it

[Rainallnight]

I was going to say dummy clip. That was a game changer for us.

I’m so sorry, OP. It’s hellish.

[SunshineLollipopsAndRainbows]

I was going to suggest cranial osteopathy. A friend of DM’s practised it & several people we knew swore by it. An absolute life changer! Babies can be very severely affected by their birth. Really hope things get easier OP. It sounds horrendous. Being a parent can be unbelievably tough.

[BoxedOut]

@Secondchildregret I hear you about being completely broken by it and having tried everything. Such disrupted sleep is awful, you must feel wretched on every level.

Two thoughts-

1. As everyone else has said, can you pay for a comprehensive set of allergy tests?

1. You mentioned your DS2 and your DH both don't tolerate blankets on them at night. Does your DH have any other sensory issues? Does he have any (known) neurodiversity in his family?

Just asking because your description of your son's 0-60 screaming on waking reminds me of my DC2. Both my DC are autistic. We successfully sleep trained our DC1 using timed comforting (ssh pat every 1-2-3 mins). However our DC2 was, literally, impossible to sleep train. It was off the charts. DC2 has a more complex profile of autism and is acutely anxious, particularly at night. Brief wakings at night caused intense anxiety at being alone and high pitched screaming.

I am aware that it's a MN cliche to suggest it could be autism! But if your DH (or you) has any family history then it's worth bearing in mind.

[BoxedOut]

@BishFish

One of my DC was like this. Nothing worked for her that worked for the others. She didn’t sleep through until she was 3, and then still had disrupted sleep and nightmares.

We didn’t have any developmental concerns at the time, she met all her milestones and was bright, if a bit sensitive. However she developed severe anxiety at primary school, and was diagnosed with autism at 9.

Please don’t leave your DS to cry alone - if there turns out to be an underlying reason for this then you might find it hard to forgive yourself.

Is his dummy pinned on with a dummy clip? At some point he should be able to locate it himself if he wakes looking for it

@BishFish Cross posted with yours ... Yes, it's an awful feeling when you later find out your child was experiencing terror throughout the night and you were dutifully trying to sleep train them.

[noideawhatsuits]

@Namechangetime89 I don't agree sleep training is barbaric and think you are being hugely unhelpful saying that. If you don't want to do it, fine, but if it's helped others that's great.
By 11m old babies do not need to wake that often. My little one was slightly older and didn't vomit when we did the sleep training but she did scream and I hated it, but it didn't last long and the change in her once she slept better was obvious to everyone - she was so much happier. I wore her (in a sling) pretty much all day every day, so she felt secure, but she just didn't know how to get herself back to sleep. From sleep training (we actually got a sleep consultant to help us) once she finally managed more than 40mins at a time she only took about 3 nights until she did 6hrs at once which was amazing! We did go in but actually it wound her up more, so we shhhed at the door. She was on reflux meds we'd had her checked lots by the gp as she was miserable during the day, and we'd realised with weaning that she had food allergies so we narrowed down her and my diet to safe foods, and we knew she was warm, dry, clean, safe and I watched her on the monitor to check she wasn't hurting herself or sick (sleep consultant told me if she was to clean up with as little fuss as possible, but didn't have to do that) and she had had lots of cuddles during the day. So please do not tell me I'm barbaric. It wasn't just me it was best for. You might have had the luxury of taking it in turns for naps during the day but not all of us do.
OP I hope you get some sleep soon, I really feel for you x

[mumyes]

@MolliciousIntent

I'm fully prepared to be told I'm a monster, but if I were you I'd send your partner and your older kid away for a few days, prepare to sleep on your sofa, put the baby in the cot, shut the door and not go back in til morning.

I am the softest mum, but I must admit I would do this too.

Your mental health is important. Do not lose sight of this.

Hugs xx

[Keladrythesaviour]

Sounds odd and unrelated but could you try and teach him a little makaton? It sounds like he's hugely frustrated and if he could learn a few basic signs it might help him to communicate rather than scream, and reduce his frustration levels whilst also reducing your overwhelm. Just an idea.