School system

[ChickenRacer]

Hi,
My lo is supposed to be starting reception in September, but I really do not feel happy about it. No concerns specific to lo.

Its I just don’t feel confident schools are good places - because of the testing and pressure it brings, large children to staff ratios, ungentle behaviour policies, potential for bullying, the manipulation techniques teachers have to use when managing a class of kids, lack of play as they get older, I could go on!

it seems children have so many mental health problems these days and whilst I’m sure some of that is down to more awareness etc, I can’t help think that the modern school system has a big role in this too.

I know there is the possibility of home educating, but this isn’t a option for everyone, so where does this leave our children?

I see today that the government is increasing the academisation of school, basically privatisation of schools, which surely means managers making lots of money, money that really should be going to the children.

i don’t see very many people worried or talking about this often, so is it just me?!

Definitely not just you!

Ok, so I can tell you about my DDs school: it is a tiny village primary (under 50 pupils) with two mixed age-group classes. Each class has one teacher & two full-time TAs. The school is a wonderful community, my DD has friends across the two classes, in different year groups - they all play together at break times & after school on the green.
Because the school is small they can do whole school trips. The headteacher is very aware of the limitations of a small school, so makes sure to do lots of fun stuff - they regularly go to the village green or field for play times, welly walks & forest school on the field & around the village. They do regular school trips & the PTA (I'm the Chair) organise lots of fun activities & help the school buy resources when the school budget doesn't stretch.
Reception is mostly play-based; Yr1 still has a lot of play but obviously it decreases as they move up. However as another PP says this doesn't mean going straight into rote learning - it's activity based learning.
Due to the size of the classes the teachers can individualise the curriculum to each pupils abilities, and provide the support they need.
They do swimming every week from Yr2 upwards, & use the local sports centre for swimming & it's sports hall.
The downsides of the school are no school hall, no massive library or IT suite, no dining hall, no wraparound care before or after school except for some extracurricular clubs (which are free). There are less pupils meaning fall-outs can be tricky; less pupils means less diversity (we're in a semi-rural area). The school can't be reached by public transport, so everyone has to either walk or drive.
So this gives you a snapshot of the school my DD attends - the teachers, head & staff are doing an amazing job with the resources they have, they care about the children, want them to flourish & succeed. I chose this school over of catchment school because it felt 'right'. My DD is doing brilliantly there & my DS will be starting in Sept too.

I do understand your concerns. We all want what's best for our children. Hopefully, you felt good about your choice of school, & chose it for a reason? If you want to help with the school offer to volunteer, join the PTA, become a school governor, actively work with & support the teachers & staff. Or, if you aren't happy, there are other schools, both state & private that might better suit your child's needs/personality. Or you can home school - though that has its own advantages & disadvantages.
However, unless you're a government minister, you'll unlikely to be able to change the current policies & therefore reality of the education system within this country anytime soon. And being as a General Election isn't likely for a few years yet, & outcome unknown, the current education system won't be changing for the better any time soon either, so you can really only work with what's available & push for change through voting, campaigning etc. other parents & teachers ARE concerned about this, have been for years, but whilst the current government are in charge it won't change I'm afraid.

Thank you for your reply and a helpful summary.

as far as schools in my area go I think I’m happy with the one we are offered. But ultimately they all come under the governments regulations etc., so who knows! It’s funny because on one side people often say all schools are much the same so doesn’t matter which you get, but then on the other side keep talking about choosing the right school for your child. It’s very confusing! And I’ve been on the open day, but it’s so hard to know what really goes on. My lo is also at preschool currently and I know so little of what’s going on on daily basis, like the teachers do their best to give you summaries of what they are covering each week and then maybe a photo from the day of lo doing something. But it’s such a small snap shot. I totally don’t expect teachers to do more, BUT it’s also so hard as a parent to have so little basic knowledge of what happened to your child for such a large proportion of their time. How can I support lo when I don’t know what’s going on and lo not able tell me. Sorry rambling now!

Primary schools can’t tailor to every child and tbh nor should they. There are basics that kids just have to learn.
What I would change is secondary schools and the emphasis on uni being the only good choice in life. Bring back training programs, teach useful skills etc- now that I would work on and support. Primary schools are fine, just need more money, resources etc.

The school system is far from perfect, but my observation of families who have opted for homeschooling instead is that it is at least equally problematic, even when done well, which it often is not.

Lockdown may have been bad for some kids but it was wonderful for mine. They thrived. It made us looks at what wasn't working for them at school and choose alternative provision.

I’d really be interested to know more detail about home Ed families you’ve observed (outside of Covid, which was a completely different kettle of fish). How did you know they didn’t work well and what problems did they face? Thanks

@TheYearOfSmallThings
I agree with you here. I know a home school family where they children seem uncertain and unconfident. I don't think the parents have unfortunately given them the skills they need. Though I couod be wrong if course.

I feel like this narrative comes up a lot or is overarching in circles which are quite heavy on the home ed, perhaps "crunchy" parenting circles which begin with things like breastfeeding groups and sling meets. I had these same worries and fears too.

As it was, we moved to Germany when DS1 was 5 so we avoided the school decision at all because home education is illegal here, and they don't start until 6 (turning 7) so I had longer to think about it. It turns out that the utopia of later school starting doesn't really exist, and TBH now I have some distance I find my friends who are very keen on home ed do have some strange ideas about schools, either really outdated that aren't congruent with normal schools or just completely wrong in the first place. My friend's home educated son told me "everyone who goes to school is a bully". Well, no, that's not really how it works. It's not helpful to have such a rigid us vs them mindset.

No, schools are not perfect and they will be more mainstream discipline wise than the gentle or particularly totally collaborative models you might prefer to follow, but in general it's really not that bad. Home education isn't bad either of course. They're both reasonable options. But I don't think it's correct to say that schools are an oppressive environment that ruin children's mental health. Some children perhaps neurodiverse might find that they struggle in a school environment. But this is modern life in general, it's not schools specifically.

I understand your argument- I guess they thing that makes me question this is that I know that there are a lot of ex teachers who have decided to home educate their children. These people surely are very qualified to judge the school system as it currently stands?

Just watched 2 homeschooling kids meet in a cafe with their parents. Very awkward. So far they haven't said a word to each other

It's part of life.
Like working and illness and death

We cant avoid it so dont dwell.

Are you an anxious person who over-thinks? Try to shield your child from your fears

How did you know they didn’t work well and what problems did they face?

A relative homeschools, as does a friend from baby group, and another acquaintance (all for different reasons). I would say academic outcomes are spiky, and the older ones especially can drift. This is based on my observation - the only concerns mentioned by the parents are around homeschooling networks not being as strong as they could be.

I know that there are a lot of ex teachers who have decided to home educate their children. These people surely are very qualified to judge the school system as it currently stands?

Where do you know this from? I wonder what proportion of teachers choose to homeschool. And whether the minority who choose to homeschool are better qualified to judge than the majority who choose not to?

I personally know a number of teachers that have decided to home educate because they don’t like the school system. I have also seen on a home educating Facebook group I follow that there is a large number of ex teachers. At least one person in this discussion thread also said they were an ex teacher and decided to home educate.

I’d say that a teacher is probably a better judge of whether a school or home education is better for their child, than your judgment of how home educating is not successful; with your three examples you know of home educating families. Not being rude, but you’ve kind of contradicted your own argument

Love it when people attack others (and accuse them of being over thinking) for just wanting to debate and explore ideas instead of just blindly accepting the status quo! Nothing wrong with doing some research and talking to others about a subject of interest!

You’ve observed a family from afar for around, what an hour, and from that tiny snapshot you can conclude that home education doesn’t work?!

Not being rude, but you’ve kind of contradicted your own argument

I really haven't.

other countries with very good school systems do not start formal learning as young, do not test as much and do not compare schools in league tables etc.

My understanding is that those statements may be false, or at least too simplistic.

afaik,
in England, learning is predominantly play-based until late in yr1. This is very similar to the universal preschool experience that small kids get for cheap/free in NE/FI/DE/other.

UK may do more published and nationally standardised tests but other countries do lots of testing, it's just locally organised & the results may not be published. Some countries test a lot early to sort kids by ability. Eg: Germany starts sorting kids into more/less academic tracks via assessments from about age 7. Far East culture is to send kids to crammers from young age so they are constantly pushed & assessed. Finland's system which doesn't sort into a vocational stream until about age 13 is an outlier really.

Yes the UK has a transparent standardised test results tradition. Other countries don't make it as easy to tell what schools are achieving & if pupils are getting good results compared to their potential or their peers.

I taught in a junior school where the local feeder primary school did 'child led learning.' The school taught reading 'when the child was ready.'

The only problem with that system was that many children didn't feel the need to learn to read, so a third of my class in the junior were non readers.

Schools are not the places of horror that you fear. Most children love going, and thrive academically and very importantly, socially.

Ah yes, I was around this narrative a lot (was an attachment parent/sling/breastfeeding went to some crunchy groups) and I think part of the problem is deomising school into something it isn't. We had been planning to homeschool but had a fantastic pre-school and realised how much that gave my daughter. We tried school fully willing to return to the homeschool plan if it didn't work for her but she has truly thrived. When we meet up with friends who have continued to homeschool it has made us confident we have made the right decision for a huge number of reasons! They all have some funny ideas about what school was or wasn't. And often ended up with workbook based learning for key topics which wasn't as interactive as at school! A friend "covered history" by attending some fantastic holiday workshops ... which we also went to with our schooled kids! So it doesn't mean you have to miss out if your child goes to school. You can still visit places, etc.

As for ex-teachers homeschooling. I think that's great. I'm an ex school teacher and considered it! However there are far far far more teachers with children in school than not!

Part of it is about letting go, letting development happen and relinquishing control. This is something I found hard! But it has bought so many positives for us. The "doing maths through baking" and "we did lots of learning today because we went to the shop" pales into comparison to the variety of topics my child has engaged with and the social skills and being part of a close community through school.

I think it can be different if you have a child with SEND needs as schools often can fail them. I have met home edders for whom this is the case and can see how school doesn't fit all.

I don't think home ed is wrong, and in some situations becomes preferable to school, but I don't agree with their narrative about school being bad/home ed obviously the superior choice as despite the many problems with our govt and teachers it is still pretty great.

And yes Notthesporty type - all that around schools not being scary place people fear.

I was told "my child is ahead of schooled kids in xyz" and yet they were still struggling to read/form letters as they were waiting for the child to want to. That is a big risk.

Lets face it-

People are generally happier when surrounded by conformity. Maybe it makes life more predictable. It does not challenge the status quo. Not attending school while apparently thriving is disruptive to that comfort!
People have to justify their own choices.

Some of the comments on here are incredibly closed minded and judgemental.

The children in the cafe - do you know them? Do you see them regularly?
If you witnessed this on a weekend - would you even bat an eyelid? - would you sit there and feel it appropriate to analyse some children’s behaviour?
What if they had SEND?!

Plenty of ex teachers home ed! Me included and I know at least 6 others! Not all of them carry their baby in a sling and breastfeed them past 3. We aren’t all extremely religious. We aren’t all ‘extreme’ in other ways. I’ve met plenty of amazingly confident, respectful and sociable home Ed kids.
Some are quirky but isn’t that a good thing?!

My husband and I have both noted at least 7 children we know personally (since babyhood) of who once going past reception seem to just change. They are more serious, less carefree. They are also less relaxed around adults- won’t initiate conversation with us as easily without us starting first. We have both noticed this separately!

I respect both sides of the argument - of course there are pros and cons to both. I agree -school can ‘suit’ some children.There will always be a place for school systems. Not everyone could home Ed - for a wide variety of reasons. School is also a sanctuary for many children.
There are plenty of excellent staff in schools but equally plenty of power hungry truly terrible ones!! (And quite a few on here getting unnecessary defensive - we aren’t criticising you!!! I used to be up until the early hours lesson planning -I know it’s not a job - it’s a life choice! - we are critiquing the whole system - the curriculum, the teacher training, the behaviour management, the unnecessary testing)

As some Pp and the OP have said - it’s the system- it is very much broken!

Positives

• My children bounce off learning from other adults who (in general) are passionate about their job. They become interested in topics they probably wouldn’t have been without school encouraging them.


• They have high expectations placed on them and have learnt (the hard way sometimes) they need to work hard and keep trying. Despite being a teacher I’m too soft on my own children so glad they have their teachers expecting more.


• school trips, assemblies, learning instruments, playtimes, special event days -all extras that make school memorable for them.


• Making mistakes and having that form but fair approach guiding them and they respond so well to their teacher gently pointing out things to improve than they do to me!

I could go on!

My son is currently in reception and I'm very impressed with his school. The learning through play and the care and compassion they show the kids. They've done wonders for my son's confidence and have really treated him as an individual.

He is at a very small single form entry school which might be the difference. His teacher is also wonderful and one of those who was made to teach early years.

I agree that a little bit of shame and other 'negative' emotions can be good for kids. Understanding and processing their emotions is a vital life lesson. They have to learn how to deal with guilt, fear, sadness, anger, frustration etc.

Same with uniforms. Lots of jobs have uniforms of some kind and it's a useful life lesson that sometimes you have to wear certain things.

You’ve observed a family from afar for around, what an hour, and from that tiny snapshot you can conclude that home education doesn’t work?!

You seem to have ignored my other comment about a homeschooling family I know. Home schooling creates extremes - genius children and drop out children. In my opinion unless you are extremely well resourced with time and money and extremely creative then your kids will miss out. Are you well recourced op? You will also need a lot of patience. And please don't be one of thise unschoolers who let's their kid regulate their screen time (when kids can't physically manage this).