Close friends with horrible children

[SantasComingToTown]

Just looking for some advice from anyone who has experience of a similar situation.

My Best Friend who I’ve known since we were 3 years old has a 3 year old DS, I have a 1 year old, and as much as I love her, her child is so badly behaved I’m at the stage where I don’t like my son to be around him.

I know he is only 3, however there is absolutely no discipline from her side at all. She just lets him run ragged and he really is quite a spiteful little boy. He runs in the road, and has nearly been hit by a car 3 times when I’ve been with them, pulls a full shelf of products on the floor in the supermarket (which gets left until I pick it up). He’s banned from my house now as last time he came round he terrorised my poor pet, pulled my voile curtains and tension road down, scratched my hardwood floor, bit a chunk out of one of my candles, completely trashed the place and then also broke some of my sons toys. This was all acceptable to her, so I asked them both to leave. He also nips and bites other children.

I’ve been really blunt about this whole situation to her and how I find it unacceptable to allow him to treat someone else’s house, animals and things in this way, but the response is kids will be kids, he’s a toddler, he is learning, and that he doesn’t listen to a word she says anyway so there’s no point in telling him off (which is right he doesn’t). She hides behind the fact her son is ‘cheeky’ and ‘cute’ to justify his behaviour which I don’t think is helping the situation.

Whether I agree with it or not, it’s up to her how she raises her kids and if she allows him to trash her house etc that’s her problem, however his behaviour is now affecting our relationship, as I’m at the stage where I don’t want to go anywhere with her when I know her son will be there too (which is pretty much all the time). We’ve always gone on day trips together so it would lovely to go with both our kids too but as hers is so badly behaved with no consequences, I don’t want my son to pick up on his bad behaviour and start copying. I do so find it really stressful going out with them as I feel I have to watch her son as well as mine own, so he doesn’t hurt himself or someone else.

Has anyone been in a similar situation and how have you managed to protect your relationship with your friend?

I’m not a perfect parent, I never said I was, no one is. No ones children are perfect either, they all have their moments, but I can’t absolutely tell you for certain, that my son who yes is younger than hers is right now, will never enter her house and trash the place, because if he did something to her property and didn’t listen to me when I told him no, I would leave. He will never run in the road 3 times, because after the first time he will be put on reins or strapped in his buggy. He won’t throw cutlery or run around a restaurant annoying everyone in sight, because I won’t allow it, I would leave. It’s not about being perfect and breeding angels. It’s about giving children boundaries. Every child has their moments, my issue is this one seems to have more bad moments than good. And when you see someone as often as I do (several times a week for his entire life up until recently, which is the reason I was asking for advice on this post), and you witness this type of bad behaviour every single time, you begin to realise, this isn’t a bad day or a child who is having a moment, this is the norm. These are just incidents I have personally witnessed, there are many others that my friend herself and her husband have told me about, that happen at home or the grandparents houses. One set of grandparents doesn’t even allow him in their house either, so I’m not a isolated case.

Maybe I am being judgemental and I’m a bad friend for saying how I feel but I have to think about the safety of my son first and foremost, and also if there is any way to save our friendship I want to take it. Just because I don’t like her child or her parenting style, doesn’t mean I don’t like her as a person, and our friendship isn’t worth fighting for. Maybe it will turn out he is SEN and we can work together to adjust to his needs to make our time together enjoyable, maybe he won’t, but in the mean time I can’t just sit there and use the excuse of ‘he’s a toddler’ to justify his bad behaviour. Im the last of my friends and cousins etc to have a baby, so I know many many toddlers (I’m talking double figures), and none behave the way he does and to the extent he does. That can’t be a coincidence?!

Oh. My!
How mortifying. I do find it so odd how some people think that’s okay to let their children do stuff like that. I’m not sure if it’s because my parents were quite strict when I was younger, but things like that really embarrass me.

I feel some people don’t have that boundary with their children where they can see when something they are doing stops being cute and a funny one off, to being really irritating to everyone around them and a apology just won’t suffice.

I really don’t want to get to this stage, but I can totally see it happening in the near future, if I can’t figure out what to do. I’ve had a lot of people on here say to just see her in the evenings which I going to start doing! Keeping everything crossed we can re build some of the bonds that have been broken in the last few months.

Yes I can completely understand why you do this! I just find it really difficult to sit there and just let him behave the way he does, especially to other random children even when outside. I feel partly responsible because he’s with my group if that makes sense.

I have a child with additional needs who's a bit like this but the difference is I would be really apologetic and offer to pay for, replace or to fix something damaged. I would never let my child hurt an animal, even if it meant keeping them in arms reach the whole time (would probably do that anyway to prevent most accidents occurring). The child running in the road is very concerning, my child does that so used a buggy later than normal, tried reins and a wrist strap, and held hands whilst walking. Just generally had to be incredibly vigilant around roads and cars. It does sound like a parenting issue, and that this child is lacking in boundaries or that she doesn't know how to manage her child's additional needs/ behavioural issues. I would feel very sympathetic toward a child like this who's parent is not helping them to feel secure and protected and meeting their needs for safety and security. Kids with neurodiversity need those boundaries as well and often need more help to keep themselves safe and interact socially. A parent who just lets them trash places and get into dangerous situations is not doing their best by that child.

Omg, the judgement on here, he sounds like a full on boisterous toddler boy to me. I had a pretty perfectly behaviour DD, now 21, follows by twin boys, now 17, who could have done all of the things described in your post, and more, it was v difficult to deal with at times but we kept trying! Fast forward to 8 and they were the most helpful, compliant kids, we helped with scout camps and the like and dealt with a lot that were frankly a pain, contrary, etc, fast forward to now and they’re doing really well in sixth form with loads of friends, many other children I know seem to have significant mental health, and other problems, unfortunately there’s been a tsunami of this recently. After the toddler years with my DSs I found I never again judged toddler behaviour or another’s parenting, I’d say support your friend and there’s a long way to go! Don’t judge so soon,

It may also be a defensive approach for her - her child may have additional needs or may just be challenging, but if she ignores it or tells herself it's just "high spirits" she can pretend there's nothing wrong. It's not unusual. As a parent of a child with some low level additional needs, I've always been quite surprised at how many other families with issues that, on the surface appear similar, are in complete denial. One woman I know and like very much but she landed up taking her son out of the school because she refused to listen to what they had to say. SIL, bizarrely, appears to prefer to think that her 5 year old is being purposefully "bad" rather than acknowledge that perhaps more intervention is needed.

It's odd.

Sometimes I am sitting on my hands not to suggest diagnoses to people @MsMarch I can't unlearn all that I know about neurodiversity, sensory issues, learning difficulties etc. Yet all around me parents seem to prefer to outdo each other with stories of their terribly naughty children instead of acknowledging that their might be an unmet need. Usually with a permissive style of parenting or what I call permissive authoritarian where they swing between being very permissive and OTT disciplinarian with not much in between (ignore, ignore, ignore, shout, punish). My whole life changed as regards parenting when I switched to a authoritative approach (what some people call gentle parenting), but I get judged for not using naughty step/removing toys and activities/laying down the law "I'm the adult and you'll do what I say" type parenting. That's not what I mean by discipline. Discipline to me means supporting the child to feel safe and secure and able to manage their own emotions and reactions, teaching them the techniques to self regulate, connect and communicate, and eventually to empathise and have their own internal moral compass. This child sounds like he lacks discipline. Not that he needs a good talking to or punishment. He needs somebody to give him the boundaries he needs to feel safe and loved and to relate to others in a positive way.

@Foodbanksshouldbeobsolete your description of permissive authoritarian describes SIL to a T. Ignore ignore ignore then go completely over the top.

My friend’s DS was awful - and she did absolutely nothing about it. No discipline at all. I got fed up of watching him act like a nob and hurt other kids, so I stopped seeing her.

Stick to boozy Mum nights out. Leave the kids out of your friendship.

Its a difficult situation. I sympathise. If her child is 3 I guess it wont be too long until he starts pre-school or actual school & hopefully then you will be able to meet up without him.

I have a similar situation also with a friend & her daughter & sadly it has meant my friend and I have drifted apart, we do still see each other but less often & definitely only when our children are in school. It is always nice when we do catch up though. Hang on in there I would say! Good Luck

It's surprisingly common @MsMarch
Such a shame when often the need the child has is really easily met. IME behaviour is communication. If a child is behaving badly they are communicating an unmet need not 'attention seeking' or 'misbehaving' just trying to communicate an unmet need. They aren't demons sent to punish their parents for the crime of having them, they are tiny humans who need help to get their needs met.

My sisters children were like this. They would come and wreck the house. They never heard the word ‘no’. Discipline didn’t exist.
At least this mother isn’t family, so you can just distance yourself. I would.

The kid himself isn't horrible. He is being parented horribly and that's the end result. It's not his fault, it's your friends!

I've very rarely come across a mother spending all her time with a toddler (I'm assuming she look after him all the time as you said he's not in nursery) who is not trying her best with the tools/knowledge/experience she has. I'm sure there's the odd few who just don't give a crap, but more often poor behaviour is a result of the parent not knowing how to address it or just being completely overwhelmed.

You say you like this person but you are being judgemental in the extreme. Its in the title of the thread - "horrible" child. He's not a horrible child, he displays some challenging behaviours, maybe because of poor parenting or maybe there is more going on. Honestly, a 1 year old is often a walk in the park compared to a 3 year old. And in any case, all children are different - comparing yours with hers is not helpful. You come across as very naive - "I won't be negotiating with my child to sit in a trolley" - by age 3, they can refuse to sit in a trolley and short of physically forcing them, there's not a lot you can do.

Honestly, my 3 year old ds is going through a period of pretty awful behaviour at the moment after being such an easy, sweet baby! I’m constantly correcting him and doing anything in my power to stop the behaviour. He’s like a ticking time bomb, I’m constantly on edge waiting for the next incident. He’s unlocked the door and ran out of the house, nearly jumped out of the bedroom window, flooded the bathroom, broken every door handle on every cupboard, broken the tv…I’m knackered (this has all happened in the time it takes to put washing into the machine) . Luckily, he’s slightly more respectful in other people’s houses and he plays well with other children.
I struggle a lot with restaurants because he doesn’t want to sit still for 2 seconds. He will bang cutlery for fun and try to get off his seat while eating. I do correct him though, and I try hard to get him to stop the bad behaviour- although he doesn’t listen half the time. I dread to think what his behaviour would be like if I brushed it off and let him get away with it! I have sympathy for your friend because some days I just don’t have the energy to constantly correct, and I let him get away with more than I should, however, his behaviour is never going to change if she doesn’t try to teach him right from wrong. Some toddlers are bloody hard work and it takes hard work from parents to encourage good behaviour.

I have a lovely friend whose daughter is so spoilt. We just meet without the children.

Hello! I'm in a similar situation with a close friend, so was searching MN for some sort of advice. Can I ask how your situation is going, almost a year on from your original posting?

For the people who say ‘let the friendship go’! Honestly disgusts me! This sounds very much like a child with ASD and even if it’s not (which at 3 you wouldn’t even know yet as too young to fully diagnose) then what’s her kids behaviour got to do with your friendship? If you are REALLY friends you would cut out the cruel judgement and see her without you children or when he is at nursery. Yes, it maybe less than before but you can still have a friendship. Parents who have children like this know it’s bad and are humiliated and embarrassed, which is why she isn’t apologetic. She’s maybe in denial her son has ASD. The running in the road, along with other things you’ve mentioned is ASD behaviour, it is not BAD behaviour!!!!

I've seen this with my friends boy and I’m so glad I never ended a friendship over her son having autism. She felt alone enough already. I did however limit the time I saw her with my children as they would sometimes copy, which I didn’t want. I never shamed my friend, I asked the correct questions and listened when she was ready to talk about it. You sound very harsh and tbh I wouldn’t want a friend like you.

Reading more of your comments I can’t believe the way you describe children under the age of 4. Adults who you hate - fine - but your language at describing innocent children who have bad parents or learning disabilities is disgusting.

For example ‘He sounds like a nasty little brat who is never told NO.’

God help your child!

My little one was just like this, I used to be worried about going out not knowing what the day had in store and the judgement and stares used to upset me. I would blame myself for the tantrums and destructive behaviour, I just didn't know what I was doing wrong fast forward two years and his behaviour has changed for the better. He is now 5 and a complete joy such a loving caring boy I'm glad this difficult stage has passed. I feel for your friend but boundaries must be put in place. My older DC never went through it so i was concerned about all sorts of possibilities. At 3 it can be a very difficult time they are so young so curious little understanding of the world around them they are all so different dont let something like this ruin your friendship OP.

The difficult thing is when the person with badly behaved kids is your relative. Jumping on furniture, never say thank you, making rude remarks … the list goes on.

These threads come up periodically on MN with everyone patting themselves on the back about their perfectly behaved DCs and superior parenting skills and sneering at lesser parents and their feral little shits.

However I note that you have a 1 year old. I suspect that when your DC enters toddlerhood, you may be more forgiving and realise that kids are sometimes naughty and badly behaved no matter how many parenting medals you have. And this with bells on if you ever have a child with SEN.

If you have banned her kid from your house and ordered them out last time, then the problem is solved because it sounds like you're no longer friends.

Clearly your friend's son's behaviour is quite extreme and needs to be challenged more, but 3 year olds can be very willful and while parenting style and levels of discipline can make a difference, I think the child's personality is often underestimated. My daughter doesn't behave badly but she is very active and getting her to sit at the table for a meal when she was 3 was near impossible. My son isn't much different. We just avoid situations where this would be a problem but when we do need to sit down for a meal and my children are jumping about I feel so worried that I'm being judged about my lack of discipline. The same goes for the struggles my daughter has with sleep. Sometimes people just don't understand what it's like to have a highly active child and how exhausting it can be. Perhaps your friend is exhausted, in which case it's harder to enact constructive discipline as she may just be desperate for her son to behave and perhaps bribery is an easy fix. Have you asked her how she's doing and feeling? She may be brushing things aside or making jokes when really she feels exhausted and a bit out of her depth. Just a suggestion from a mum of highly active children!