Hesitant to have another baby with current Russian threat?

[sm2510]

Possibly a bit daft but would the current Ukraine/Russia situation make you think again about having another baby? I have 2 dc (5 and 3) and have been thinking about having a third, but the current situation is making me anxious about the future and the thought of being pregnant if things get worse over here really frightens me. I guess my fear is not being able to access the care I’d need (I’d need a c section as I’ve had 2 already) if things really kicked off here. Am I being completely ridiculous?!

Thank you @RussianSpy101

You’re right. And so is the op when she says that people are so much ruder on here than in real life!

We are bloody lucky to have our four wonderful children.

Russia no.

This yes, all yes. No more children.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/07/climate-crisis-amazon-rainforest-tipping-point?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Children only get more expensive as they get older. I am extremely happy I stopped at 2.

I have 5 children.

If I knew then what I know now I wouldn't have had any.
I couldn't bring any into the world knowing how difficult it will be for them living on a dying planet, with scarce resources and less land, economic and civil unrest. It's going to be a shit show.
The Amazon dieback is nearing tipping point and the whole war thing has meant it's going under the radar. It's terrifying.

Why would anyone wish that suffering on more children?
Russia and Ukraine are low on the list of international dangers.

@BrutusMcDogface you definitely are! We have 3 and I would love a 4th!

These threads always get derailed by people who are fiercely defensive about their own choice to have 3+ children.

I respect everyone's right to have no children or as many as they choose, but let's not pretend it's a good thing for society as a whole, even though it is a good thing for people on a personal level, for people who want it.

Bonkers OP.
I don't have kids because I don't want any, but would never be out off of having them by global socio-political issues.

Comparisons with WW2 babies are senseless. Free contraception wasn't introduced until 1967.

OP, if you're this anxious about the war then having a 3rd baby now will not help that anxiety.

[quote pucelleauxblanchesmains]@beattieedny Yes, it's anti human, especially because historically a lot of the people "concerned about overpopulation" have been eugenicists. Similarly when people say we can use immigration to fix our fertility collapse I do wonder quite how happy these immigrants would be to know we basically want to import some serfs. But then this is where my beliefs (standard Christian) diverge from the prevailing Mumsnet mindset that humans are a blight on the planet.[/quote]
Yeah, importing cheap labour isn't particularly great imo, for us or the people used as cheap labour. Of course if people want to come to Britain I'm all for it. It's a good place expecially compared to about 90% of the world and I'm the child of immigrants (all my great grandparents fled Nazi Germany and we were raised to be fiercely patriotic about the place that took us in and allowed us safety without having to give up our Judaism.) I think having faith, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, whatever, imbues an appreciation of every human life. All human life is from God / whatever one believes in and is sacred. The prevailing 'ugh humans are a scourge' thing isn't healthy.

@NameChange30 why is it not a good thing for society as a whole?
4 more tax payers, 4 more doctors, surgeons etc would these not be good for society?

Overpopulation isn't caused by having multiple children, as long as the average amount of children doesn't go over two it doesn't matter whether ten hypothetical children are distributed over five families of four or four of 3/3/3/1.

And anyway we have already reached peak number of children in the world which means the population is stabilising.

Humans going extinct would be great for the planet but pretty shit for humans. Not just because of the being extinct part but all the stages that come before that.

Look up Hans Rosling "Don't Panic" on YouTube. (It's a BBC production and he was a well respected scientist).

This isn't defensiveness, it's a genuine belief. I thought the same when I only had one child.

[quote RussianSpy101]@NameChange30 why is it not a good thing for society as a whole?
4 more tax payers, 4 more doctors, surgeons etc would these not be good for society?[/quote]
More people means more demand for housing, education, healthcare, and other essential services. I wonder how much tax someone has to pay throughout their lifetime before they contribute more than they cost.

I have two children btw but I am not kidding myself that I had them as a favour to society; I had them because I wanted them.

Also who says all these extra kids will be tax payers, doctors and surgeons?!

Overpopulation isn't caused by having multiple children, as long as the average amount of children doesn't go over two it doesn't matter whether ten hypothetical children are distributed over five families of four or four of 3/3/3/1

Genuinely asking this and not trying to be argumentative but people having multiple children is exactly what pushes the average amount of children up... so while in principle I get that the distribution doesn't matter, that is irrelevant surely as we aren't dealing with a finite number of children and then distributing them, we are dealing with the reality that if everyone who can have more children does so, overpopulation occurs?

@NameChange30 but who is to say they won’t be?
I have 3 children, we pay for their education and health care so I don’t see how they cost more than a 2 child household who use state education and the NHS?

I've just done a run through of all my old classmates from secondary school and counted up the children. Quite a few have 4, most have 2, a few have none at all. Only one person has one and no one at all has 3.
The average is 2. Overall the one that have four make up the numbers for those that don't have any.

@BrutusMcDogface

I hate threads like this. We have four. Do people judge us for not being socially responsible?

We've got 6 and will have as many as we want. Judgy folk can jog on.

@BrutusMcDogface

I hate threads like this. We have four. Do people judge us for not being socially responsible?

Yes I would say some people will judge you. Did you consider the environment impact at all?

I wouldn’t have kids full stop when it’s likely they are going to witness the horrors of the world as we know it ending and half the world being underwater in less than 60 years

@Chely good on you!! Honestly don’t know why people get so worked up about how many children others have.

@Chely

If you want another, have another.

People rabbit on about the world being over populated but also want cures for every disease going.

Exactly!

Just see any Covid thread, ‘one death from Covid is one too many’ etc etc

Genuinely asking this and not trying to be argumentative but people having multiple children is exactly what pushes the average amount of children up... so while in principle I get that the distribution doesn't matter, that is irrelevant surely as we aren't dealing with a finite number of children and then distributing them, we are dealing with the reality that if everyone who can have more children does so, overpopulation occurs?

We are not dealing with a finite amount of children, no, but anyone having children who wants them also doesn't mean everybody having children indefinitely, because most people don't want to do that. Most people only want a small amount of children, 1-3, many people don't want children at all. It is a rare thing to have a large family and so large families act as a statistical anomaly, being cancelled out by smaller families. Ultimately the decision of an individual to have one or two more or less children is neither here nor there. The average is what matters, and actually what tends to affect this most strongly are three things (all of which, thankfully, we have in the UK)

Low infant/child mortality
Access to contraception
Education for women

If you are worried about overpopulation (which arguably you shouldn't be, because there isn't a great deal of influencing to do, the population growth has already happened) you should look towards initiatives which improve these three factors in countries where the birth rate is still high.

I think you are wise to seriously reconsider bringing any more children into this world in its current state.

This should come through at the right time if you click on the link rather than watching MN's preview (if not, skip to 19:11)

It's very well explained and thought provoking. I'd recommend watching the whole thing or reading his book too. But this clip explains what I mean by the population growth has already happened.

If this is a serious question, if you’re seriously concerned about having a baby because of the war in Ukraine…don’t do it. You already have 2, raising children is demanding and takes lots of mental and emotional space and at times physical stamina. I think you would struggle with the additional challenges of a third child, if your mind can by swayed by the opinions of strangers on the Ukraine conflict.