Balancing DD's right to wear what she chooses with worry that she'll attract upsetting male attention

[FairPeter]

DD travelled on her own to a 18th party last night by train (1.5 hours away). She was in a jacket, trousers, trainers and bralet top. I suggested a coat and she said no. (I wasn't worrying about the cold so much as unwanted attention on the train.)
She got quite badly hassled on the train by a bunch of football supporters. When she got back this morning, I said "please wear a coat next time" and she was furious and said that she couldn't believe my first reaction was to blame her for her clothing, not the men who hassled her. And I think she's right. I'm 50 and grew up hiding/camouflaging to avoid being hassled on public transport - being scared, basically. She says she should be able to wear what she likes and they can f* off. Yet I still worry about her on her own on public transport (she's 17 and attractive). Is there a balance here to be had or should I 100% support her right to wear what she likes? I can't bear the thought of her being hassled - though I gotta say I admire her for her attitude. Any advice?

No advice, but have similar conflicting thoughts ... watching with interest.

For all you might want her to dress more conservatively to reduce unwanted male attention, and that's fine, it's crap that your first reaction to her telling you this was the coat thing.

You should have agreed with her / despaired at the actions of these men. End of. If you have a son, it's worth having conversations about this with him too.

This is so tricky and I have this conversation with my 15 year old. I agree that they should be able to wear what they want without being harassed but I would also like to leave the car with the keys in it and it not to get stolen- we unfortunately do not live in an ideal,world. I tell her people judge people all the time on what they are wearing and certain clothes give people certain impressions. But I am your age and it sticks in my claw to have to say this as I agree you should be able to adopt any style you like.

That said I do feel social media, much of it run by men, has influenced young girls to wear such sexual clothes, and at such a young age, that they feel they are being liberated and cool but they are in fact just being sexualised. It is very tricky.

It's a sad fact that clothes like this will attract male attention and stupid comments. It's wrong and shouldn't happen but it will. I used to hate male attention so would wear more modest clothes (but of course I 100% believe people can wear what they like).
We can condemn the mindless male morons as much as we like but it's still going to happen. It's also worth recognising that even women wearing a coat and jeans get hassled (especially if young and attractive). I suppose the men might react more to revealing clothes thinking the woman's "up for it". Obviously stupid but it's how their small minds work.

Our mum used to say to us on the way out the door, you dress how you like but remember, if you put it all on display you're gonna have an audience.

Yes you can wear what you like, no you shouldn't get hassled. Just be aware that what's on view is in view to everybody. And not everybody is nice about it.

Very difficult as of course your DD is absolutely correct but you don't want your child getting into a difficult and potentially unsafe situation. Maybe suggest a coat of she is travelling alone but dress how she likes if there are a group of them? It feels so wrong because the onus should be on challenging the male culture but that isn't a battle that can be fought by one 17 year old on a train.

It’s completely normal to wear a coat out in this weather and isn’t practical not to. Unfortunately in some places (Paris being one) you simply cannot walk around with an expensive bag or a tiny crop top without getting hassle/mugged.
I don’t find it so bad in London but I wouldn’t risk it in many areas.
It’s not victim blaming to say that you need to protect yourself. You don’t know what people were taught was acceptable as kids and there are a lot of unpleasant people about.

The people who really need to be having this conversation are the parents of boys but sadly it doesn't always happen.

Depends what time of day. I wouldn't travel on my own on public transport in London after 9 pm. Nor would any of my kids, of either sex.

I think at 17 it's a decision for her to make.

Talk it through with her if she wants, but ultimately it's her choice.

She's right of course. She should be able to wear whatever she likes and not be hassled. But, that's not the world we live in.

I hope she's reported the behaviour to the relevant authorities? If not, you should help her do that. This behaviour must be called out and challenged as much as possible.

@Pyewhacket

Depends what time of day. I wouldn't travel on my own on public transport in London after 9 pm. Nor would any of my kids, of either sex.

That's ridiculous.

Our mum used to say to us on the way out the door, you dress how you like but remember, if you put it all on display you're gonna have an audience

If she had sons did she say "just because somethings on show, doesn't mean you get to look and comment on it"?

She must have been freezing!

It’s not victim blaming to say that you need to protect yourself

This is true - but carrying a handbag and wearing a short top are normal things to do, and things that shouldn't need to be stopped to increase your own safety.

Assuming she’ll be doing a similar trip soon, the logical assumption is that it will be the same next time.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the situation, she has to take responsibility for her safety. There are a lot of things people shouldn’t have to do, but in reality they are necessary. She has to face reality, regardless of whether it’s fucked up and wrong.

She almost certainly would have been hassled anyway in that situation. Clothes may have made catcalling etc slightly more likely but I honestly don't think they'd make much difference to her risk of harm: that's a man problem not a clothes problem. Avoiding football crowds would make more of a difference (although of course she shouldn't have to). As Bernadette says, your first reaction should have been sympathy/annoyance on her behalf. Immediately mentioning the coat is a bit 'I told you so' too... might she be less inclined to tell you about harassment in future if this is your reaction?

When I walk the dog on my own, I stick to daylight or well lit areas where there are a decent amount of people. When I am with dh, we can go freely to isolated areas, secluded woods, in the dark - anywhere. It’s very wrong but it is the current reality.

NuffSaidSam

I live in SW London and work in a large London hospital. Work a weekend shift with me and I'll show you how rediculous it is ???

She is right.women can wear potato sacks and they will still get harassed. It reads to me you think it is her fault she had unwanted attention

You should have told her you call or text British transport police and they would have had someone at the next stop/stop after to board the train and remove them.
Tranposrt police are actually really food and quick to respond.

@Pyewhacket

NuffSaidSam

I live in SW London and work in a large London hospital. Work a weekend shift with me and I'll show you how rediculous it is ???

That's got nothing to do with public transport.

I also live in London and travel regularly by public transport. It's ridiculous to suggest it's so dangerous that no-one should travel alone after 9pm. Public transport is full and busy, lots of people travelling alone, travelling with kids, travelling in couples, groups. Fear mongering is irresponsible.

I understand the perspectives, all the best op

That said I do feel social media, much of it run by men, has influenced young girls to wear such sexual clothes, and at such a young age, that they feel they are being liberated and cool but they are in fact just being sexualised. It is very tricky.

I agree & I think it's confusing for young people. On one hand it's liberating to pose in undies on social media & for the opposite sex to see that but on the other hand sexualisation is bad & what females wear & their sexual history can be found against them in a rape trial.

I grew up in a then rough part of London & whilst I should be able to cut through the park, be on certain roads at night & wear what I like the reality was my safety was more important.

It’s a difficult one, balancing concern against victim blaming.
The reality is - while her outfit might attract more attention, if someone is inclined to SA you they will do do whatever you are wearing.
Search for Mary Simmerling’s “what were you wearing?” art installation. It’s sobering.