At my wits end with my 12 year old behaviour. PLEASE help

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My 12 year old DS's behaviour has been terrible for a while now. It's getting to the stage where I wake up on egg shells.

Some of the problems -

Constant backchatting and disrespectful comments. For example barking at me to "hurry up" in the morning.

Constant battles when he doesn't agree with what he's being told to do. He is like a dog with a bone and will just not do what he is told and goes over and over the reasons why he thinks he doesn't have to do it / wants to do something else. He will literally stand in the same room and keep it going. It's so draining.

Not doing what he is told. For eg me and his dad said he cannot go out of school for lunch for the first year at high school. I found out he has been doing this. He just does what he wants and doesn't really care much if he gets found out.

If he gets consequences he will shout that this won't work, that it is just going to misbehave more. He will refuse to hand the phone over and shout.

One issue is that he goes to his dad's 3 days and nights a week and he is well behaved there. He respects his dad, but has no respect for me. They have different rules and routines there, and his nan (who his dad lives with) spoils him. This isn't a recent change though, he's been going there 3 days every week since he was very young and we split up.

Another problem is that I'm on a very low income so there isn't much I can remove as 'consequences'. His phone is about all I can remove. There also isn't much I can give as 'rewards' because I can't afford it.

He says he cannot change his behaviour, cannot help it. Our relationship is becoming fraught and our house tense.

What can I do to turn this around? If anyone has any advice I'd be really grateful?

I think your DS is definitely suffering from emotional domestic abuse when he's at his dads. Making him confused with his feelings and loyalty towards you.

You can 0808 2000 247 and they'll help you navigate the situation

Thanks Beamur I will look into those. I'd always thought unaffordable, but if there are concessions that might be an idea. My young adult DD's boyfriend found scouts beneficial.

@QuizzicalEyebrows I've not been with his dad since DS was very young.

That said my DS was not the nicest of people from 12-16

I don't think it is perfect at Dads. I think your son is very afraid of upsetting him. Dad may be more organised - some kids get very upset by being late and such like.
You get the poor behaviour in part because he trusts you more. Like toddlers - they act up to test the boundaries, will you still love me and stand by me if I'm horrible?

It sounds like he's under huge pressure to behave at his dad's and when he gets back to you, he explodes.

My DD goes to Guides and they will adjust subs accordingly if asked. I know of a few families who have paid something like £5 a month when they were struggling and all of these organisations have nurseries and charitable trusts that give grants for trips and equipment. Second hand uniform is always passed on where we are and it's not perceived negatively by givers or receivers!

Burseries not nurseries!

Thanks @QuizzicalEyebrows . I think that things appear perfect to DS when he is at his dads, but underneath he knows that if he disobeys his dad then the withdrawal will be unbearable, so he never does misbehave. Then he gets it all out when he comes to me.

I don't think anything can be done about there though. I saw 2 different solicitors quite recently to see if I could get more days. They both said that it is not a case they would take up because of DS age. He can pretty much choose where he lives. I need to focus on our home life here, because I know from past experience that trying to change his dad is futile.

I think it is fair enough that he is cross if you make him late to school.
Secondary schools can be very tough on lateness, and both my children would be concerned about the consequences of being marked late.
Can he do more to make sure you both leave the house on time in the morning, if that is a source of stress?

Cadets might be another extra curricular that he could try? Again charitable so could be good for you if you are on a low income.

Also, what about mentoring, I am a volunteer mentor to a 14 year old girl, and i give my time for free. See her twice a month, its great. Also through the mentoring we get to have days out which are paid for.

Can he earn some pocket money? My DS babysits for my neighbour for 1 hour on a weekday afternoon and he gets a few £ for that, something like that so he can have some spends so he can do what his peers are doing?

He sounds like he is very clever, what about y6 tutoring for the SATS? He could advertise locally, do it via zoom or in real life?

He is too young to do tutoring, but babysitting, car washing, etc ate a good idea.

Actually 12 is too young to babysit for other people's children too, imo

If your DS feels like he’s walking on eggshells around his dad, which he will be if his dad demands compliance with the threat of love being withdrawn, this is basically the parent child version of coercive control, then it’s no wonder he’s acting out with you. Like I said in my PP, you are his safe person, you are the one he can act up with in the knowledge that you’ll still love him, his release valve as it were. Try to remain calm, firm and consistent, and seek support, PPs have given you some good advice. Sorry OP, it sounds shit.

@BreadProductionLine I would keep going with the conversation but a couple of hours isn’t enough.

My DD went through this phase and at one point I literally put her outside the door with her coat and told her to ring the bell when she was ready to apologise and show some respect. That seemed to hit home. We also took the phone for 1 day and then again for 2 days.

You can’t have a grown adult treating you like dirt so you need to nip this in the bud quickly

Its difficult for your DS because for him that's all he knows and he has no idea his Dad is being abusive. For him it's just normal and as it's not physical and you've been to lawyers there doesn't seem much you can do about it which is frustrating and a bit crap tbh.

Meanwhile you both suffer the consequences of your ex behaviour and in turn it affects you and your DS relationship

Your DS probably would benefit from what PP have suggested like the cadets, or anything after school with different role models

Try and grin and bear as much as possible. Id try and do nice things with him and maybe a bit of lovebombing.
Its really easy for relationships with our teenagers to deteriorate around puberty. They can become such dickheads and you end up just locking horns.
Try and talk to him about where hes at. I wouldnt take the phone necessarily, but id talk to him about respecting each other.

my ds is now 19.
At 12 he was quite like this, especially the argumentative part.
He wanted a TV and x-box in his room and we siad now and he battered us for 3 years to get it.
He was ALWAYS right and ALWAYS had an answer to every point you made.

In the end we had a simple, the discussion is closed, and I am not talking about it any more, and enforced it.

When he was 18 he suddenly massively grew up over a period of about 6 months. I had a long chat to him at the end of that time. At the time his younger sibling was being an absolute pain (like he had been)
One thing he said I will pass on to you:

When I was 12 I thought what I needed was a TV all night in my room. I didn't, what I needed was parenting, and you guys did that. Thanks Mum.

Hold on in there and don't be afraid to parent him

Bless you, and him. You are both in stressful life situations. I think if there's any way you could look at this between you, then maybe you could have a pact to support each other whatever.

What do you think he'd say or feel if he read this thread?

I think he feels trapped, and he has all those terrible strong hormones hitting him like a wave, as well. Age 10.5 to 12.5/13 is in my experience the total worst time with boys. My son and my brother both became almost entirely uncommunicative in this time, apart from mostly being cross, and occasionally looking out of their changing faces with the rather scared eyes of a child still.

Your son is going through a massive, cataclysmic change in himself. And now suddenly his public appearance, his status with his friends, is painfully important. It's the most important thing in his life. And not being embarrassed is his way most important priority.

Being late to school is awful, unthinkable, for him (and he glad he feels like this!). Say sorry to him about ever being late. Make it your number one job in the morning. Start planning to get there early. Take this pressure off him. It's hopefully quite an easy/small thing for you, but it doesn't cost anything and for him it will be a big way to show you're listening to him and respecting what he says. Tell him you're going to take the stress out and would it be good if he's there 10 mins early every day? Then do it.

You can't change where you live, or magic up more money. I'm so sorry as financial strain is the most awful, degrading, debilitating thing. You could put this before him. Is there any way he, or the two of you, can think of making a bit of extra money, so he can do more with his friends? Has he got any ideas for buying/selling online, etc? Often kids have some great ideas, and there are platforms out there set up for this, like Depop and others. Or he could buy some discount items and resell at a small mark up, etc. Or he could game for money (I think that is a thing). Do a you tube channel. Etc. Ask him. He may have ideas.

Joining something cheap like cadets could also be talked about.

You guys need to work together. You need to tell him you know what's winding him up. You need to let him go with his mates at lunch. You need to tell him you're sorry you haven't kept up with him. Get a location app and agree he can go so long as you're able to see where he is for safety.

Talk to him differently. Accept he's turning into a young adult sooner or later. 12-14 is a very rocky time.

Promise him you and him are a team, not you and Dad. (Dad, by the way, is abusive to you both - forget him completely as any kind of support - cut him out of the loop and tell your son you're changing your attitude).

From what you say, your son does see you as the decent kind person who he can rely on. But his taking his frustration out on you. You need to be more competent and understanding of his real challenges, in my mind. Forget punishment as a control method - it often makes things way worse. You need to work on co-operation.

I think your best bet is asking him for help. Ask him to step up. Do that yourself as well.

I'm so sorry, though, as I know it's a hard slog. I'd be respectful of anything he tells you very clearly, and don't make peer pressure worse. Give him his freedom as much as you can, while still monitoring.

You two need a joint plan.

He is too immature for his age to babysit, although I'm sure other 12 year olds could at that age. Possibly my sister's eldest only who is 4, but not her younger ones so probably not a goer.

I am seeing though that it would be good for him to have something to do he feels is helping others. He really liked when they wrote to care home residents in school.

I'm not sure how he could earn money, and I don't think my budget can stretch to giving him any. He gets £10 a week from his nan. I pay for the phone and save for 'big' items at Christmas, such as his gaming station.

I will maybe see if there is a way to give him £10 a week. If I could I could start at £5 and increase for good behaviour or decrease for bad.

@trumpisagit I very rarely make him late for school, but yes the mornings are rushed. I think it does bother him yes. His dad is way more organised than me, at everything. That is something I need to try my best to change.

I’m sorry I don’t think you can grin and bear to that extent.

I allow lots slide with my DD13 but there has to be a base level of respect. They can sometimes try to erode this but you have to push back.

My DD is often rude, dismissive, ignores me etc but once it tips over into a level where you can tell there zero respect rather than teen rudeness, I push back quite hard.
It’s a personality / hormones thing, my other DD would just never do that.

When I was 12 I thought what I needed was a TV all night in my room. I didn't, what I needed was parenting, and you guys did that. Thanks Mum.

This, too, but at the moment I feel you feel weak, with all the pressures, and he sees you as weak too.

I think you need to build something good together, more than anything. And you bring string even in something small like setting off early will make him feel more secure.

When he says do you want to get me adopted, I'd just say what the hell ... I know we have stupid moments where you get annoyed etc, but you're the most important thing in my life snd no damn way would I ever swap you. I'm just waiting until you're lovely when you're 18 😉

You need to talk to him about this as a passing situation. He won't always feel like this. It'll get better. And you will always be there. Always.

He needs reassurance, I think. Others may say I'm totally wrong, but I think he's got to cope with two homes, split parents, an abusive dad and the money worries. It's a lot. I'd be cutting him some slack.

But I'd get agreement that he won't say mean things to me. He needs to stop that.

As others have said, your DS needs to learn how to make positive choices about his behaviour towards you. I wonder if he feels he has something over you because the phone you've given him is a secret from his dad? Not being able to lose the phone when with his dad seems to give him little to bargain with whereas he's holding it over you and threatening consequences if you remove it. Both of these suggest he isn't sufficiently mature enough to handle the responsibility of a smartphone and I think that's something I would raise with him, in the form of a contract. Perhaps his phone stays with you until he's met the terms of his contract each day?

What are the non-negotiables for you in terms of him contributing to the family? Are there things you expect him to do regularly e.g. make his bed, hang some laundry etc? Write those down and make them his responsibility to do without being asked. With regards to the mornings and him telling you to hurry - is there a way to cut this out of your day? Let him get himself to school so that complaint is a non-issue. When he argues, sit yourself down with a book or walk away (calmly). Don't engage with the arguing but use a stuck record technique or say, "come and find me when X is done." Brow-beating you into having his own way isn't going to help him long-term and although it's hard to hear him threaten he won't come home, he goes back to his dad's where he's not allowed a phone...

There's a behaviour technique called 1,2,3... magic which describes how to come up with 'stop' behaviours and those are the things that are picked up on but by pre-identifying them, it can take the emotion out of responses e.g. "DS that's 1" when he backchats instead of saying, "I've already told you it's disrespectful to talk to me like that". After a stop behaviour has occurred three times, there's a consequence. It might be the consequence is to withdraw yourself from the conversation, take yourself to a different room or that he misses out on a lift somewhere.

so much wisdom in Aphrodite31 posts.

Do read those ones again and try them.

And I agree with other posters, now is the time to move to a more adult way of communicating.

It is worth remembering that we need to give them positive attention as well as negative and this can be impossible when they are like this.
As adults we have to find ways to do that.

Apart from mostly being cross, and occasionally looking out of their changing faces with the rather scared eyes of a child still.

Yes this.

I can see where I am going wrong as well. I can be quite dismissive sometimes (not all the time by any means) if I am stressed. My dad was the same when I was growing up. I lost my mum in bad circumstances when I was a bit younger than DS is now and my dad was absent emotionally after, so I don't really have a 'blueprint' for parenting teens!!
It is also that I am in a stressful situation with not enough money for us to have treats or even get the flat better decorated so they could have their friend's here (it's clean but one room doesn't have flooring yet and needs new paint etc). I have chronic health conditions as well and don't get enough sleep. I work full time but bills are just too high and keep rising and my benefit top up was frozen for a lot of years with the freeze and doesn't stretch anymore.

I can see that my issues aren't the DC's fault though, and I need to do better at stuff like the morning routine, and not being preoccupied and stressed and dismissive of him at times.

@merrygoround51
My DD is often rude, dismissive, ignores me etc but once it tips over into a level where you can tell there zero respect rather than teen rudeness, I push back quite hard.
It’s a personality / hormones thing, my other DD would just never do that.

How do you push back? I need other methods to consider I think.
I think with DS it is a personality thing and also a father thing. His dad has no respect for pretty much anyone, rude to shop staff etc. DS probably learns from him that it's okay not to respect people.
My older DD is not like this at all, and has a different father. Like you say, she has times where she will snap at me, but it doesn't really cross the toxic disrespect line.