Circumcision

[Kanfuzed123]

Right I know this is a super contentious thread on MNs and I’d like to make it super duper clear that DH and I are emphatically against what I’d call involuntary circumcision i.e done to a child, specifically an infant. I do appreciate there are some medical circumstances that mean a circumcision is necessary but for the most part, I’m a your body, your choice kind of person.

I know this is highly emotive for a lot of people so please please please don’t just comment with ‘circumcision is barbaric’ / ‘ Muslims are backwards’ or equally ‘ it’s fardh to be circumcised’ or ‘ you can’t pick and chose your religion’. This is how we feel. Our son if he reads up on the procedure and would like to be circumcised at an age he can consent, we’ll support that but knowing there can be complications, i can’t put a child through that unnecessarily. Please respect my beliefs.

So that being said, we are Muslim. For anyone that doesn’t know it’s a cultural norm in the larger Muslim community. Many in fact (incorrectly)relate being circumcised to being Muslim. I’m expecting a baby boy in a matter of days and we won’t be circumcising, it’s a convo to revisit In teen years potentially at DS request as it won’t be Initiated by us. However, and this is the tricky part, DHs family will be very very into this, it’s often done as almost a celebration of sorts on the 7th day of life. Obviously this won’t be happening. As much as I’d love to educate and inform his family about why we think it’s morally wrong and not theologically necessary, nothing will come of it except arguments and harassment. They will be like a dog with a bone.

I’ve come here for opinions on which ‘lie’ or one liner will just shut down conversation until they eventually lose interest and move on. Also would appreciate suggestions on how to shut it down and move on, again dialogue just won’t happen. Will be like arguing with a wall.

1. doctors advise was to wait until out of nappies so that’s what we’ll do
2. pretending we’ve done it (will have to watch and make sure MIL in particular doesn’t ever view a nappy change in this instance)
3. I’d rather not discuss my sons genitals thank you
4. ‘we’ve got an appointment booked’ and then making up an excuse as to why it didn’t happen, or likely they’ll have forgotten
5. we’ll wait til just before puberty (it’s a lesser known tradition)

Which one is enough to shut people up, I’m thinking number 1?

Thanks in advance

Personally 3. Shut it down from the start rather than giving them another deadline. Make it clear its not an issue you want to discuss with them. Thank them for their opinions but declare it's not for you. I'm not Muslim so can't relate to this pressure, but that must be very hard for you OP.

6)The doctors say he has a mild degree of hypospadias. They hope he won't need surgery for it, but if he does, they'd need to use his foreskin to reconstruct his penis. So they've told us we absolutely must not circumcise him.

1. Make it clear that infant circumcision is not something you will consider and that DS will be able to make that choice when he is old enough to take an informed view.

If they believe otherwise, I would never leave my child in their care, because if they had it done without my consent, there would be no coming back from that. Best to avoid that situation at all cost.

@nocoolnamesleft That's brilliant

I do get that, but it’s just they won’t give in, it will be a huge scandal and people will harass us to try and change our minds, i mean it won’t, but who needs the headache.

As point of reference we already have a DD. It is a sunnah (so a nice but not obligatory act) for the head of a boy to be shaved on the 7th day, the hair weighed and the money given to charity. This is only a sunnah for boys. Now his family do it for all kids, just the shaving not the charity part, which is fine it’s just a haircut but we didn’t do it for DD. The amount of harassment we had was unreal, phone calls at all hours, people turning up at our house, i could go on… this is the level and I approached this with, here is the theological proof it’s not necessary and it was like talking to some really arrogant fundamentalist walls lol, so I don’t think saying thanks but it’s not for us will work.

3. was just going to be like I don’t want to discuss it, i think it’s immodest and it’s making me/ us uncomfortable?

I'd go with either 1 or 5. You can't say it's been done, there would be too many worries about a family member changing his nappy and seeing the "evidence" that he isn't circumcised. Personally I'd go with 5, if this is a known option, that way you'll have about 10 + years before anyone mentions it again. Good luck !

@nocoolnamesleft

6)The doctors say he has a mild degree of hypospadias. They hope he won't need surgery for it, but if he does, they'd need to use his foreskin to reconstruct his penis. So they've told us we absolutely must not circumcise him.

Actual genius! What is that condition though? The family can be quite nasty because I wasn’t the ‘ideal spouse’ so just don’t want him made fun of.

www.ouh.nhs.uk/patient-guide/leaflets/files/100701hypospadias.pdf

(I'd personally probably prefer just telling them to mind their own business, but this is a genuine reason people are told they must not circumcise)

This probably isn't what you want to hear, but I think this is a much bigger issue than what lie to tell re not circumcising your own child. What exactly are you getting out of the relationship with your husband's family? In the space of two posts, you've outlined three pretty major conflicts (they don't approve of you as a spouse, harassment over not shaving your newborn daughter's head and now this). If you don't nip it in the bud now, you're going to face a lifetime of fighting them, treading on eggshells or tiptoeing around to hide how you're choosing to live your lives and parent your own children. What's the next thing going to be? Because there will be one.

Personally, I think it would be better to stand your ground and have the big fight now. They're YOUR children. Bring them up how you want to and if the in-laws don't like it, they can jog on.

3, but I'm a contrary sod so the censure wouldn't bother me.

No advice, but just wanted to say well done OP. The world needs more people like you and children need more mothers like you. It's hard work swimming against the tide.
I hope your husband is on side?

Good for you for pushing back. I’m from America so don’t necessarily equate circumcision with a particular religion as almost all men of my generation were circumcised but the tide is thankfully turning away from that now.

I’d also just say it’s not a topic for discussion but like others I’m a contrarian and would just get the fight out of the way and sod the lot of them if they are going to be cruel to you or the baby long term. Your DH should be taking the lead with conveying this to his family and protecting his wife and child.

It's nothing short of DISGRACEFUL that other adults even ask you about something so personal, voice an opinion on it and then verbally abuse you thereafter if you haven't done what they think you should.

It is absolutely NONE of their business. Your own tiny baby boy is born with his penis absolutely as it is meant to be. Removing part of it is mutilation. I would be so passionate about my own feelings on this, that I would tell them very clearly its not being done and his genitals are NOT being discussed again. Feel the fire OP. Believe in your decision. It is nothing to do with them. You do not owe them this. Shut them down every time.

@Kendodd

No advice, but just wanted to say well done OP. The world needs more people like you and children need more mothers like you. It's hard work swimming against the tide. I hope your husband is on side?

This.

I’m so pleased to read a post like this. Well done.

OP not read the thread but circumscision is sunnah and not fardh so I would just say that if asking and be firm and stubborn. Repeat it as many times as you need to

Thanks all DH is on side, he’s very rational. I didn’t think too much of circumcision until I went to a lecture on it out of interest at Uni and was horrified of some of the complications when done as an infant, I’ve just shown DH some of these and he was mortified, so he’s on side.

The problem is, I would say please mind your own business but the main issue is a language barrier. I can’t speak their mother tongue so it will all fall on DH (although I’m sure I’ll get the ‘blame’). There is also a cultural thing about respecting elders (read as doing whatever they say even when they are frankly abusive to you) and DHs personality is quite soft hence why we just feel the non confrontational route is just easier.

It’s not so much in laws, although MIL is like a dog with a bone and very much like this but I could tell her to shut up (she’s a little bit afraid of me because I’ve had to shut similar things down before, not unnecessary infant surgery’s but cultural things we weren’t cool with) but it’s extended family, what’s mad is that we don’t even see them, it’s a maybe at eid for 20 mins or at a big family wedding once maybe twice a year….madness

Op, I don't think there is a language barrier in the world that sticks on a firm NO, repeated over and over, and a cold hard stare.

Well done for standing your ground.

I wouldn't put it past them to have it done if you let them babysit

Be honest, I would sat: we believe it is up to the individual to choose - he can choose once he's old enough to give medical consent.

This was my attitude to religion too, we didn't baptise as babies, one of mine chose to be baptised at 11, the other at 19, both attend c of e churches as adults.

@Kanfuzed123

I do get that, but it’s just they won’t give in, it will be a huge scandal and people will harass us to try and change our minds, i mean it won’t, but who needs the headache.

As point of reference we already have a DD. It is a sunnah (so a nice but not obligatory act) for the head of a boy to be shaved on the 7th day, the hair weighed and the money given to charity. This is only a sunnah for boys. Now his family do it for all kids, just the shaving not the charity part, which is fine it’s just a haircut but we didn’t do it for DD. The amount of harassment we had was unreal, phone calls at all hours, people turning up at our house, i could go on… this is the level and I approached this with, here is the theological proof it’s not necessary and it was like talking to some really arrogant fundamentalist walls lol, so I don’t think saying thanks but it’s not for us will work.

3. was just going to be like I don’t want to discuss it, i think it’s immodest and it’s making me/ us uncomfortable?

Re read this OP. Is this really the life you want? Culrural norms dictating your life?

My son has mild hypospadias, it's really obvious. If they google it they'll immediately know he doesn't have it because his penis will look totally normal.

Not especially @Colin56 but I’m not going to separate from dh because his family are backwards. We’ve chose to have v v LC with most, it’s just kids and weddings are the things that bring every Tom, Dick and Harry out of the woodwork.

Oh and to the pp who mentioned babysitting, it will never happen. Most have never even seen DD, we’d never let that happen.

I spoke to DH and he just wants to go option 3, it’s not really any of your business and it makes us feel very uncomfortable discussing my childrens genitals. Fair play to him, underestimated the bloke

@Kanfuzed123

Not especially *@Colin56* but I’m not going to separate from dh because his family are backwards. We’ve chose to have v v LC with most, it’s just kids and weddings are the things that bring every Tom, Dick and Harry out of the woodwork.

Oh and to the pp who mentioned babysitting, it will never happen. Most have never even seen DD, we’d never let that happen.

I spoke to DH and he just wants to go option 3, it’s not really any of your business and it makes us feel very uncomfortable discussing my childrens genitals. Fair play to him, underestimated the bloke

Good on him! 👏

Just tell them there is a name for those people obsessed with a baby's genitals..

Just say no. If they call to harass you block their number. If they turn up at the house to push the point call the police and have them removed.

They don’t like or respect you, they don’t respect your husband, they don’t add any positives to your life. So there’s no value in pandering.