Circumcision

[Kanfuzed123]

Right I know this is a super contentious thread on MNs and I’d like to make it super duper clear that DH and I are emphatically against what I’d call involuntary circumcision i.e done to a child, specifically an infant. I do appreciate there are some medical circumstances that mean a circumcision is necessary but for the most part, I’m a your body, your choice kind of person.

I know this is highly emotive for a lot of people so please please please don’t just comment with ‘circumcision is barbaric’ / ‘ Muslims are backwards’ or equally ‘ it’s fardh to be circumcised’ or ‘ you can’t pick and chose your religion’. This is how we feel. Our son if he reads up on the procedure and would like to be circumcised at an age he can consent, we’ll support that but knowing there can be complications, i can’t put a child through that unnecessarily. Please respect my beliefs.

So that being said, we are Muslim. For anyone that doesn’t know it’s a cultural norm in the larger Muslim community. Many in fact (incorrectly)relate being circumcised to being Muslim. I’m expecting a baby boy in a matter of days and we won’t be circumcising, it’s a convo to revisit In teen years potentially at DS request as it won’t be Initiated by us. However, and this is the tricky part, DHs family will be very very into this, it’s often done as almost a celebration of sorts on the 7th day of life. Obviously this won’t be happening. As much as I’d love to educate and inform his family about why we think it’s morally wrong and not theologically necessary, nothing will come of it except arguments and harassment. They will be like a dog with a bone.

I’ve come here for opinions on which ‘lie’ or one liner will just shut down conversation until they eventually lose interest and move on. Also would appreciate suggestions on how to shut it down and move on, again dialogue just won’t happen. Will be like arguing with a wall.

1. doctors advise was to wait until out of nappies so that’s what we’ll do
2. pretending we’ve done it (will have to watch and make sure MIL in particular doesn’t ever view a nappy change in this instance)
3. I’d rather not discuss my sons genitals thank you
4. ‘we’ve got an appointment booked’ and then making up an excuse as to why it didn’t happen, or likely they’ll have forgotten
5. we’ll wait til just before puberty (it’s a lesser known tradition)

Which one is enough to shut people up, I’m thinking number 1?

Thanks in advance

@TyrannosaurusRights

Just say no. If they call to harass you block their number. If they turn up at the house to push the point call the police and have them removed.

They don’t like or respect you, they don’t respect your husband, they don’t add any positives to your life. So there’s no value in pandering.

Easier said than done, if it was me and my family that’s what I’d do. But as its DH family, I want him to manage that/ those relationships.

I already abstain from any and all family gatherings - always ended up feeling like shit. I mean maybe it won’t be a huge deal but I’m recalling the shaving of DDs head was such a ‘scandal’- I’d rather him be prepared up front with what he’s going to say. He’s a very very mild person and always avoids confrontation, so I’m surprised he wants to go with sorry but it’s not your business, he was quite cut up about the hair shaving harassment

I’m not Muslim and so I don’t feel like I have the right to comment really but I just wanted to offer you support.

Depending on how much I wanted to keep the relationship/avoid confrontation I’d say basically tell them all how it was and give them a very firm “accept it or stay out of our lives” type ultimatum, or if i/my partner really didn’t feel able to do that I think I’d probably say it was done straightaway in hospital, and then just make sure only me or my husband did nappy changes.

Really feel for you.

Thank you @Somebodylikeyew, appreciate it!

We do tend to keep ourselves to ourselves tbh, the biggest ‘problem’ will be MIL, she’ll definitely be mithering and spreading that it’s not been done, in essence ‘setting the other relatives’ on DH. Unfortunately not the first time she’s done this, which is why whilst I totally support and applaud DH for wanting to say ‘none of your business’ that’s not the sort of thing that stops his mother… sigh.

We know we’re doing the right thing anyway, but who can be arsed to deal with arguments when you’ve got a newborn and a toddler…

Good luck OP. You never know, you might be the match that lights the fuse for other people in the family to decide for themselves what they want to happen to their children.

I only had my parents to contend with and not any extended family.

I just told them it wasn’t happening and I wasn’t going to be discussing it.

@viques

Good luck OP. You never know, you might be the match that lights the fuse for other people in the family to decide for themselves what they want to happen to their children.

Hopefully!

We lit the fuse for a few people to be ‘allowed’ to marry outside the family, so here’s hoping!

@HermioneWeasley

I only had my parents to contend with and not any extended family.

I just told them it wasn’t happening and I wasn’t going to be discussing it.

How did it go down @HermioneWeasley? Mind me asking your culture? X

It's good to know there are Muslims who are moving away from carrying this out, hopefully in generations to come it will become a non issue.

@Hohofortherobbers

It's good to know there are Muslims who are moving away from carrying this out, hopefully in generations to come it will become a non issue.

Unfortunately it’s a minority view atm, I’m the only one from my circle of friends and then we’ll be the only ones from DHs family. I’d say in most cases those who buck the trend do face significant backlash

I’m now an atheist but from a Middle Eastern Muslim background. Circumcision is the standard practice.

They were really cross about it and tried to engage in arguments but I refused, it’s helpful I don’t live near them so could just threaten to hang up the phone.

Unfortunately when he was older my DS had to have it for medical reasons and my mother was INSUFFERABLE about it.

And congratulations on the baby op

@HermioneWeasley

I’m now an atheist but from a Middle Eastern Muslim background. Circumcision is the standard practice.

They were really cross about it and tried to engage in arguments but I refused, it’s helpful I don’t live near them so could just threaten to hang up the phone.

Unfortunately when he was older my DS had to have it for medical reasons and my mother was INSUFFERABLE about it.

Ah DH is Pakistani and similar re the norm. It’s just the norm across the Muslim world. His family equate being circumcised with being Muslim, meaning if you aren’t circumcised you aren’t Muslim, which is why I think the firm NO position might be a difficult one. Like I’m sure you know, there’s no point In ‘dialogue’ or ‘discussion’ because it just won’t go anywhere. you can’t reason with unreasonable people at the end of the day

Well, my partner isn’t Muslim or from a Muslim background and given my own appalling apostasy, they already knew DS wasn’t going to be raised in a faith.

Are you from a Pakistani or Muslim background ?

@HermioneWeasley

Well, my partner isn’t Muslim or from a Muslim background and given my own appalling apostasy, they already knew DS wasn’t going to be raised in a faith.

Are you from a Pakistani or Muslim background ?

Nope to both, white convert (so to a lot of his family the devil). They don’t really view converts as real Muslims and a significant portion of the older members of the fam do believe that marrying outside of the family or at the very least the neighbourhood ‘back home’ is wrong

Well done you for resisting the cultural norm. I know it can be so so hard but your son will thank you for letting him choose.

Good for you. Dh was circumcised because his mother didn’t stand up for him and tbh, he has always resented her for it (they’re not even practicing muslims).

Would they be expecting some sort of get together, event or ceremony on the 7th day?

A bit of a COVID scare could put paid to that, could it not? And just swerve the whole thing?

Is there one family member you could get onside? Possibly even MIL?

@EdgeOfTheSky

Would they be expecting some sort of get together, event or ceremony on the 7th day?

A bit of a COVID scare could put paid to that, could it not? And just swerve the whole thing?

Is there one family member you could get onside? Possibly even MIL?

One of us could always ‘catch’ it or there could be a case at DDs nursery? But tbh that would just be kicking the can 2 weeks down the road.

Unfortunately MIL will be the worst one. DHs has told me his circumcision story and it’s fucking horrifying, won’t go into details but think someone with what I’d term sketchy qualifications and outside aka not a sterile environment and no pain relief and old enough to remember. Claims he doesn’t remember the pain and isn’t traumatised though… but Christ. Not sure what mother could do that to her child

Im a muslim. When I had LO, there were lots of traditions/customs that i didn't know about. To me this was all irrelevant. I researched and spoke to people who were able to guide me better, I spoke to quite a few clinics and my health visitor who happen to be really understanding.

I did decide to circumcise my LO, at around 1 or 2 months. It was done in a very well established clinic by a fully qualified doctor with many years of experience, who was highly recommended by many individuals. LOs surgery was quick and we were allow to be there with him. Yes, it was incredibly upsetting, especially as I was a first time mum.The guilt I felt when I heard my baby, I cried and held him for two days comforting him. By day six the ring thing had come off and LO was back to himself. Throughout this I was told by the clinic I can call whenever I need if I was concerned and they were also in constant contact with me asking about LOs progress.

You are his mother and yes it's also his choice as it's his body. So I understand where your coming from. With regards to your extended family, just be honest there no point lying about it, things always come out sooner or later.

Best wishes

I don’t want family members harassing me and DH which is what will happen and additionally they’ll state that he’s not a Muslim until he has it done, which as well do consider ourselves a Muslim family is a HUGE pressure to put on a child, so I’d rather it just not be a focus of conversation tbh. They aren’t the sort to respect one’s choices if they differ from the masses.

A lot can go wrong with being circumcised as an infant that doesn’t come to light until later in life.
A lot of people aren’t even medically qualified to do it.

Unless medically necessary I don’t think it should be done at all.

Stand strong.

Update: DH will say to wider family MYOB but apparently wants to say to his mum ‘we’ve got an appointment at some point in the future but there is a long wait list due to covid’- I think this is the worst option. Face palm

I would be very strong in this. I would tell them very bluntly that circumcision is something the boy will make up his own mind about when he is old enough and then flatly refuse to discuss the subject further. I would make it very clear to the in-laws that contact with their grandson was entirely dependent on the subject never being raised again. They either accept your decision and shut up or they have no contact. Their choice.

I would but it just won’t be my conversation to have, the language barrier being one reason and I won’t be the one they are contacting. The thing is they won’t accept that as a reason, hence the want to just brush it under the rug until they lose interest

My husband was circumcised just after birth when it is a very tiny snip. No religios reasons, it was just common practise back then' for male hygeine. Views change and by the time our sons were born it was not routine, and they were not circumcised at birth.

BUT one of the sons had to be circumcised at age 4 for medical reasons and it was a much bigger operation; he required a a general anaesthetic and there were stitches all round his penis for a week after. His pants snagged on the stitches so for a week he just went barebottom to heal up comfortably.

An adult friend had to be circumcised around age 40 and had the same problem , a bigger op and awkward stitches.

IOW, age at surgery changes the operation significantly. The choice you'd be offering a teen boy (for cultural reasons) is very different from newborn circumcision.