FIL'S inappropriate actions

[Latty84]

My FIL normally lives abroad but due to visa issues he's been back for a few months. I have a 4 year old and a 3 month old. In the last few months FIL has visited and stayed over 2 weekends, the third being this weekend coming. Before he came back to the UK, I asked my partner not to invite him to stay as I would have not long given birth and would be uncomfortable with him in my house and my space. He stayed anyway.
During those stays I noticed a couple of times when he was playing with my 4 year old he would 'tickle' in places where an adult should not touch a child. It was over the clothes and only for a second but still made me very unhappy. He also stuck a finger down the back of my 4 year olds 'builders bum' (where his trousers had slipped a little bit) and wiggled, as if to tickle.
I told my partner immediately when this happened then had a conversation about the other times I had seen this behaviour. I told him I didn't want his dad staying again and he had to have a serious conversation with him before he was to see the kids again. The behaviour was sort of explained away by my partner as 'he's just like that' and 'he's handsy'. I still don't think behaviour like that should be brused under the carpet and I'm fuming at my partner that he doesn't appear to be taking my concerns seriously and advocating for his child's safety and wellbeing. A comment was also thrown in about 'washing grandads bum in the bath for 50p'
Fast forward to now and I have just been informed that his dad will be visiting this weekend and he will have the conversation with him in the car on the way over.
I have had conversations with my 4 year old about private areas on bodies and how no-one is allowed to touch there (exception being helping clean and if a doctor needs to examine) and I hope he is confident enough to speak up if it happens again. I have told my partner that if I see anything like that again, I will call it out and it probably won't be pleasant. I'm already kicking myself for not speaking up the previous times it has happened.
I'm dreading them turning up on Friday and the conversation having not happened (my partner is not very strong and he has said its an awkward conversation to have which is why it hasn't happened yet)
I'm not sure why anyone would ever have to have a conversation like this with any normal functioning adult, surely it's obvious it is wrong?!

This is just a nightmare. Your DH is probably conditioned to it, perhaps he had that himself. You need to be with your son the whole weekend, can he sleep in with you? Don't allow the FIL upstairs with the child alone, have a baby monitor on all the time when he's upstairs asleep.
Above all call out this creatures behaviours, tell him it's unacceptable whenever he says or does anything at all that's even hinting on unacceptable.
Brief your DH too about grooming - even if it is just FILs way - it's unacceptable as it couple allow yourself son to think it's ok for anyone else to do this too - it's not
Good luck

@Latty84 When you wrote: “The behaviour was sort of explained away by my partner as 'he's just like that' and 'he's handsy'”
This made me think that your partner has had this behaviour normalised. It’s his dad so it’s likely his father did this to him or to other children in front of him when he was young.

His perception of his dad’s behaviour is probably skewed.

That’s why you can’t leave it up to your partner. You have to safeguard your children.

I agree with pp to take your children and stay somewhere else while your FIL stays (if you feel you can’t prevent him from staying).

You might need support from a professional to help your partner to realise that you have very valid concerns and to help him realise that what his dad is doing is wrong and can not be allowed to continue.

Oh jeez - so none of the adults want to call out the behaviour yet but a 4yr old is expected to do so and take the lead on keeping themselves safe? Sorry but your partner either gets on board pronto or you take your children elsewhere that weekend and be very clear why. You also need to get this noted by professionals. Is your child in school or nursery with someone you can talk to? Do you have a HV you can call? Perhaps they can make a note of your concerns and offer advice as well as educating your husband. You seem quite passive in this but you need to step up and find your mama bear.

If you don’t do anything, then you are complicit in this behaviour. He is your son he needs protecting. I can’t believe it, that you are not standing up for your child. Sorry Op but your partner is spineless. He needs to stand up for your child and his Dad he can’t stay. Sorry to sound harsh, but it’s for the child’s protection. He is innocent in all this. He will never forgive you both, if this behaviour doesn’t stop now. Please either say he can’t come or please go and take your child and stay with your parents at the weekend.

@Latty84 I can see in you Op that you are acting to safeguard your children by talking to your partner and seeking advice and support from Mumsnet. And anyone who posts on here to accuse you or parent shame you, just ignore them. Don’t let it distress you or immobilise you.

You are strong. You can be a protective mama bear. You can do this.

Op, tell DP that FIL will not be coming over. If he does, you will be reporting to Social Services and the police. You are a higher authority than DP's dad where your children are concerned, your DP does not get to override you.

I would call Social Services or NSPCC for advice.

Keep your children away from FiL. He is dangerous. Take them to a place of safety, please. Also, your DP needs to face up to what his dad has done.

He's visiting an awful lot just when you're distracted with a new baby. Are you quite sure about the visa story being true? And as for the 50p for washing grandpa's bum business - that is absolutely revolting and should leave you in no doubt whatsoever about what sort of a man he is and what a threat he is to your children.

I am sorry to say this, but if your partner has been groomed to think that this 'handsy' behaviour is perfectly normal, then you need to consider if he is also a threat to your little boy.

He is already a danger in that he has no critical thinking powers when it comes to FIL, cannot be trusted to identify abuse or potentially abusive situations so could directly collude in allowing it, but the normalising of it might also make him a potential abuser.

I wouldn't let either of them ever be alone with your children. Scream your concerns from the doorstep as you block FIL's entry if you have to. These people thrive on secrecy.

Personally I would leave.

I would go visit someone with the kids op

I would meet him at the door and tell him that if he touches or tickles your DC he’ll be back out of the door and you’ll call the police. Give him notice, don’t wait for him to do something and then try to brush it off.

If I have read your post correctly, this is what you are saying - you strongly suspect your FIL is a pervert, but are just hoping your 4 year old will tell you about it if FIL touches him inappropriately. Your DH seems to think it is all ok. You must see this is a completely inadequate response to the situation? Please, please find the strength to get away and do not let your FIL anywhere near your children. You need to protect them now, not wait until the worst happens. It's a terrible situation OP but you MUST do something about it now, please do not wait.

Don't worry about not having said anything before. You can do it this time. You can say to him that it isn't OK to touch your child in that way as you want to raise your child to know how to stay safe etc.

I think the other posters are right that your partner has been socialised to this kind of behaviour so sees it as normal OR is a very weak man and too scared to have potential confrontation with his dad (and you?).

I think it's essential you never leave this man alone with your children ever.

Was your husband sexually abused by his father ? This is the only reason that I can think of that might explain why he is a passive onlooker to the moves your FIL is making on your child.
Your FIL is making his moves on your 4 year old out in the open to test how much you will tolerate. Your husbands boundaries are fucked therefore you are the protective factor here and you must step and let this predator know that you’re on to him and that he has no place in your home and you’re life.
This is not the time to be polite or vague, call him out for what he is and protect your children.

It is NOT your 4 year olds job to speak up. It’s your job. Tell your husband to stick up for you too. Keeping your kids safe from this gross behaviour should take priority over embarrassment.

Take your children and stay else where when he’s there and maybe even consider it permanently if your husband won’t protect his children and keeps making excuses for a potential abuser!

Listen to your gut. I’d be gone for the weekend and having a serious conversation with your dp

Maybe it is innocent with his dad and just highly inappropriate but then he needs to be told this.

But I’d rather be wrong and embarrass the gf than be wrong and have my child groomed and abused

You should have called this out at the start. No way should you let him stay. You need to protect your DC

Are you coming back to your thread OP?

@o8T8o

Are you coming back to your thread OP?

I doubt it. I'm sure I've read a post about this scenario before, probably at the last FIL visit. Nothing has changed.

Apologies, this is my first time posting so didn't realise there was a time limit to reply. Late at night is the only time I get without a child and a baby hanging off me. Bear with me.

Don't apologise OP. There are some people on Mumsnet who simply can't imagine a world where people have lives to be getting on with and don't have time to provide responses to strangers minute by minute.

The fact you even have this dilemma is baffling. Be a parent to your child.

Hi OP, so glad you are still around.
Have you had a think about the (pretty unanimous) comments?
What's your plan regarding the FIL visit?

My cousin was sexually abused by her paternal grandfather;the fact she was his granddaughter made no difference to that peadophile.

He didn't live on the same city as his son and grandchildren so would visit to stay for weekends too.

She was the youngest child in the house.

Thank you to those who have posted constructive and supportive advice. I have certainly been in turmoil about this and getting points of views from others who aren't emotionally involved is really clarifying. It is much appreciated and thank you for your time.
For those posting just to have a bash at someone, please don't bother, I can assure you no one is more critical of my parenting than I am myself and, as I said, I have been kicking myself repeatedly for not speaking up before. Even so, thank you for your time also.
For those concerned about the fact that I hope my kid will be able to call out any behaviour in the future, perhaps I didn't explain myself fully. I hope I have given him the tools and the confidence to stop behaviour like this if he ever experiences it or sees it happen to anyone else. These conversations with him have been happening for a while and not just off the back of FIL's behaviour. I want him to know how to be respectful of others bodies too and wanted him to have this awareness before he gets curious about these things.
I have had another conversation with my partner and said that under no circumstances will the kids be left in any room alone with FIL, there will be no ticking, play fights, wrestling, dodgy comments, nothing. If one think like this happens, he's out. He said he will talk to him in the car on the way over (which I personally think is too effing late)
My plan for the weekend is to be out with the kids as much as possible and return as near to bedtime as possible to limit the contact. Failing that, I have relatives about an hour away I could maybe stay with.
I do actually honestly think that this is a case of FIL being uneducated (and indeed he could be described as tactile) about these things (as one poster describes) However, there really is no excuse I can think of that would condone anyone treating any other human like that especially an adult and a child and so I am not willing to let this go without something being said.
My son is thankfully blissfully unaware that anything is going on. During our conversations about consent etc, I do dig for information about if he has noticed anything (and very careful to not ask leading questions and put ideas in his head) he has never said anything about this. I do not want this kind of behavior (even if it might be coming from a place of ignorance) to continue and have him thinking 'oh its ok because that's what grandad does..
Thank you for taking the time to read this. Have a great weekend.