What would gentle sleep training typically involve?

[Aliceandthemarchhare]

I am concerned about my four month old and would appreciate some advice.

He typically sleeps from about 9 pm to 5 am and wakes up once to be fed (usually) so that’s fine.

During the day though his naps are so short that when I total it up he usually only sleeps about two hours, sometimes less. I try not to worry about it but he does get so overtired by evening it’s not much fun.

Is there a gentle way to get him to sleep a bit longer?

Is anyone with you? I think you need a break and a massive cuddle

Thank you. It’s just really difficult. I know he isn’t getting enough sleep but I can’t actually force him to sleep if he won’t. This morning has been horrific and he’s sobbing silently on me now even though he’s asleep. So I really don’t want to just put him in a room and let him cry but I’m starting to think that’s the only thing I can realistically do. I got so angry just now I scared myself.

I don't know any mum who hasn't struggled with baby sleep and at some point not wanted to scream out loud.

I know this is hard to hear but at 4 months, he's really too young to be left to cry. Sleep consultants usually won't work with babies younger than 6 months as before then, they need that attachment

You are doing so well. Could you perhaps just flop on the sofa with him, put something on Netflix and let him sleep? Is used to enjoy it when my DS napped and cuddled into me. I miss that!

I’d love it if I could but no chance.

He’s woken up already.

I am honestly thinking it’s me.

It's not you but babies do feed off others emotions. He may sense that you're upset/frustrated and is mirroring that.

Is there anyone else that can come and give you a break for a couple of hours so you can gets some rest and regroup?

Do you have a support bubble or family nearby?

No, it’s just one of those. Thanks for replying. I do appreciate it.

Oh OP I've been there believe me!

Hence my advice re wake windows and trying to get them to sleep earlier. Try to break the feed to sleep association and rock rock rock. It's really hard but you can and will do it!! It feels all consuming at the time but you will get there.

@Thatwentbadly

If his sleep is like that on an evening I won’t change a thing.

Yeh I agree with this. If he sleeps good long sleeps at night maybe he just doesn't need lots of day naps. Why do you think he needs to sleep more?

You are not alone. You are not a terrible mother. It is ok to be angry. It's ok to be frustrated and it's ok to want to give up.

But don't write off the whole day because of this. Draw a line under this nap and perhaps take him out for some fresh air or go to a different room and do something totally different.

Then go again for the next one. Could you take him out in the car and then park somewhere but leave the engine on so you can sit and get some me time even if it's just taking a book?

All I can say is it honestly honestly does get better. Something clicks usually around 6 months and sleep suddenly starts to slot into place.

Keep going, you can do it

Are some of you taking the fucking piss?!

Because she’s dealing with an overtired crabby baby all day, maybe?

Sleep consultants will work with you, OP. I used one for DC3 at this age. PM me if you’d like a recommendation. Your DS needs you coping, and this should be the priority.

If you’re like me, you’ll be BFing ALL the time trying to chase the naps, and I think this adds to the problem. My DC2/DC3 had very unsettled, windy tummies, which didn’t help the sleep situation.

OP what do you mean?

I can only see genuine advice and sharing your pain.

Sorry herc it was someone who said why did I want him to sleep more?

He sleeps a six to seven hour stretch at night, yes. But that’s not even enough for an adult, never mind a four month old baby! He needs to nap.

And I really do apologise for that post. But I have had a baby SCREAMING - not just crying but actually screaming and sobbing in exhaustion and then someone saying ‘why do you want him to sleep more’ made me angry, I’m sorry.

I knew which post you meant!

OP someone mentioned windy tummy and I'm just wondering if anything else going on? First teeth coming through, digestives issues, slight temp?

I'm sure you've ruled it out but worth double checking just in case there's something else keeping him awake

That's understandable OP. You sound incredibly worn out and frustrated by it all. I think the PP was (in a roundabout way) trying to say don't put so much pressure on yourself.

Naps can become all consuming and the only thing you focus on. My first I was terrible. I got his naps "sorted" at 6 months and was a slave to it. With my second I didn't have the rigidity because I had another child and he's much more relaxed.

Do what you have to do to get through the next few weeks?

I'm not sure what support you have but I'd try and get out for walks with friends now the weather is better. Baby may sleep and it might help you. Do you have any evening support? If you were my friend I'd come over and help if you asked.

I would try putting him down earlier, say 7:30'so you don't have a crabby baby in the evening. Then lift him and feed him when you go to bed. I would never have done this with my first baby but did with the 2nd ans what a revelation! See if that allows you a longer night time sleep undisturbed. But maybe bring forward bedtime gradually rather than in one go. Eg 30 mins earlier for a couple of nights, then another 30 for another couple of nights etc.

Re daytime naps, does he cry the minute he wakes? If not, You could try leaving him a little longer while he's awake. He might go back off, but it's good for them to be happy when awake in their cots in my experience.

Tiredness is the one thing that can blight your enjoyment of your baby, and whilst you might be getting a longer night time stretch than some parents, you are not getting any down time in the day. Ignore those being unkind.

I think that was my post...sorry! I think you are too focussed on what the books/internet say tbh.
I think you're putting pressure on yourself.
Remember this will be just a very shitty phase. Being awake 5am to 9pm with no real respite for you will be utterly exhausting.

Something I don't see covered here is: do you have any support? Could your folks come round and take your baby out for a walk for an hour or so and you can lay down and just relax?
Could your partner take some annual leave?

Oh, I really feel for you. Both of mine were a bit like this. Fab at night (in cot, on their own) but terrible during the day. They cat napped, they'd only sleep on me, or in a moving pram (couldn't stop!) or a car with an engine running (and sometimes it had to be a moving car!). They woke at the drop of a hat and wouldn't go back to sleep until we'd had another wake window. I can't remember how long the windows were at four months (youngest is 5 now), but they were longer than the books say, and they slept a heck of a lot less in 24 hours than they were 'supposed' to. They were frequently miserably tired.

I promise it's not you. Some babies are just like this. You're not doing anything wrong. In my experience, that adage about sleep breeding sleep is true. The reverse is also true- overtired babies don't sleep well (it's a vicious circle). So I think you're right to focus on trying to get him to sleep longer during the day if you can. It sounds like he's only managing one sleep cycle before waking, so what he needs it to learn to transition through that to get to the second. If he's sleeping on you, then you might try rocking, or walking him around. Anything, basically, to keep him asleep during that wakeful period. Offering him a nipple might well work, but that's a risky one, because he might sleep longer (and be less grumpy and be less overtired and in better habits) but equally you don't really want to rely on feeding him to get through sleep cycles!

I found that everything got enormously better after 6 months. Both of mine magically started sleeping in the cot during the day at that point. I also found that with a longer wake window, they rapidly consolidated their naps and found it much easier to get to sleep and stay asleep.

I’ve attached 2 screenshots from my Huckleberry app... the first at 4 months - my DD’s naps were 30 mins mostly unless she slept on me but she slept fairly well at night.

The second is from 8 months when she was doing longer naps but it seriously impacted her night sleep where she would be awake for 2-3 hours at a time.

This is why people are saying if he sleeps well at night don’t be too concerned.

4 months is hard, he’s probably going through a sleep regression as well but it does get better, I promise!

I haven’t RTFT so not sure if it’s been said but sleep induces sleep. 4 months and 8 months were a nightmare for me and DS for the same reason but routine is key IMO, for both of you.

I got DS to sleep on me, after 20 minutes put him down but only if I could/had to. He would generally sleep longer on me and after a week or so of doing this he was much more in the routine of sleeping a bit longer and at more set times.

Obviously you can’t really get them into a real routine and they’re forever changing it anyway as they grow, but I think DS went something like this. I’d really try for the earlier bedtime even if it means jigging around you day a bit, that’ll give you more time to relax of an evening or the option of an earlier night if you need it.

6ish - wake up
9 - nap for 1/1.5 hour
1ish - nap for 1/1.5 hour
7 - bedtime

I do think he still woke up 2 times for feeds though until 6/7 months old. Have you tried feeding and getting back off in the morning at 5 or waking him for a feed around 3?

Instead of lots of small naps I’d try and keep him awake (just stretch slightly) until you’re sure he’ll sleep for a bit longer so lots of activities/ walks/ playing outside watching the trees move etc. It will taken a bit of getting used to for him but if he’s grumpy anyway keeping him awake a little longer to ensure a better nap won’t hurt him.

It’s just my two cents and if it doesn’t appeal to you feel free to ignore. FWIW I do think after the regression they tend to sleep better day and night until the next one. DS is 17 months now and has been sleeping through 7-7 since he was 11 months and naps 1.5-3 hours depending what we’re doing how busy his mornings were. Still probably not the way it’s recommended but works for us.

Does he always have a nap around 6pm? Would it be worth treating that as his bedtime? Do the whole bedtime routine at 6pm instead. My DS is 5 months this Friday and usually goes to bed between 6/7pm. He also some times has wake windows between1.5 and 2.5 hours.

Sorry - I’m not being difficult but he doesn’t really get put down in the evening. He just eventually zonks out after a feed. Earlier doesn’t work, I’ve tried.

horehound I am sorry for snapping. But he should apparently be sleeping for around 15 hours at this age. Now even if I say okay maybe he doesn’t need as much as other babies he is still only getting around 10-11 hours which isn’t enough at all and it’s snowing. It’s like saying does it matter if you don’t eat breakfast or lunch or you have a good dinner ... it does matter.

If he was doing several short naps it would be fine. But I usually only get three. So I would say a typical day is 9-2 then 230-530. Then maybe two hours sleep in the day if I’m lucky. So it’s just not enough.

Does it seem like he has any reflux or anything?