What would gentle sleep training typically involve?

[Aliceandthemarchhare]

I am concerned about my four month old and would appreciate some advice.

He typically sleeps from about 9 pm to 5 am and wakes up once to be fed (usually) so that’s fine.

During the day though his naps are so short that when I total it up he usually only sleeps about two hours, sometimes less. I try not to worry about it but he does get so overtired by evening it’s not much fun.

Is there a gentle way to get him to sleep a bit longer?

I just saw your bit about him feeding to sleep. My suggestions were all to break that association as well.

I agree with PPs who say that if he'll sleep in a car, sort out a week of driving round after 1.5-2 hours awake time and see what happens.

Have you tried putting him back down at 5? My DD would wake at 5 at that age but she’d have a bottle then I’d put her back down to sleep and she’d sleep until 7:30/8.

The problem is he doesn’t always sleep in the car. (I am not meaning to be difficult here, sorry.)

You can drive for say 45 minutes and he’ll nod off when you’re ten minutes away (and he will wake up even when you don’t turn off the engine - I don’t know HOW he knows but he does!)

I don’t know if it’s the four month regression. He’s wide awake now. DH insisted on feeding him and so now we’ll have to wait until 10 before he’ll sleep

We need an ‘exhausted’ emoji on here!

He won’t vicky - he’s sometimes fallen asleep on me but then I have fallen asleep too which obviously isn’t safe

Just a thought.....what do you do with him when he is awake? Do you utterly wear him out and really stimulate him so that he gets tired? I did just go with it at 4 months I must say, but I know everyone has their own worries.

Our 10 week old was TERRIBLE with daytime sleeping until about a week ago but we seemed to have cracked it (although I appreciate this may change as he’s so little and it’s early days!)
But this is what we did that may be worth a try:
-1.5 hours after he woke up from his last nap (or before that if he was fussing and showing tired signs) we put him down in his travel cot
-we put him down on a blanket (tucked under mattress so not loose) of his that has either been on the radiator or in the tumble drier for two mins (nicely warm basically)
-white noise on our phone straight away and turn it up loud- we use “sleep-o-phant” on Spotify/YouTube
-sit next to the cot (get comfy- I sometimes take the mattress out his travel cot and put it on the lounge floor so I can stay put better) and encourage him to settle by taking a dummy or sucking your little finger. If he fusses or spits out the dummy then I just keep going and refuse to give up- I don’t make eye contact or speak to him apart from shushing sounds
You may have tried all of this but thought it may be worth sharing as this is all stuff I picked up from various places and hadn’t thought to do before ☺️
Sometimes it works within minutes, other times it takes a while!

Apologies if I've missed this but have you tried white noise for daytime naps? If he sleeps well on long car journeys you may be able to replicate that in the pram by going out on a walk with it playing then leaving it on when you get back? I know how you feel because my daughter only ever can napped - it felt like all my energy went into getting her to sleep then the minute I moved her eyes would open and it was so draining, as like yours she was overtired and angry most of the day. It did get better around 10 months when I went back to work so the end is in sight!

Here’s what I would do if I were you:

Treat the 5 am wake like a night wake, bring him into bed with you if needed (look up safe 7 cosleeping on lullaby trust if you do this). If this doesn’t work try to get an extra nap in.

Make the first wake window of the day shorter. If he’s normally on 3 hours (which does sound long for his age) try 2 hours for the first nap only. My 9 month old is on 2-3 hour wake windows (getting longer throughout the day) but for the first nap she’ll go down after 1.5 hours if I feed her to sleep. It’s the same logic behind the 2/3/4 sleep times and the one you’re likely to have the most success with doing early. This can help stopping the over tiredness building up and interfering with later naps.

Accept that there’s very little you can do to make naps longer. If he’s feeding to sleep/napping on you then you can try shushing/rocking before he normally stirs but this is so hit and miss as the timing has to be perfect so don’t beat yourself up if it doesn’t work. Sleeping longer is mostly a developmental thing.

I don’t agree with the other comments that you should stop feeding to sleep (unless you’re unhappy about doing it) feeding to sleep is quick and easy and I’m a fan of not making life harder than it has to be (and you may find as he gets older feeding to sleep is the easiest way to get a decent feed into him as they get so distracted once they can move!)

You say he doesn’t like the pram, I assume you’re still using the carry cot? My DD hated hers but we changed to the pushchair seat at 4 months and had it as reclined as it would go but not completely flat and suddenly she slept brilliantly in it.

Accept you will have some crap days where it all goes wrong. 4 months is a horrible age and I found it the hardest age so far. You have my full sympathy!

When my DD was 4 months I read “let’s talk about your new family’s sleep” by Lyndsey Hookway which I found really helpful

I can’t make his wake windows shorter if he won’t sleep

Likewise I can’t make him sleep at 5am if he’s up.

@SamanthaVimes I agree, 4 months was HARD and seemed to go on forever. LO is completely alert and aware of the world but not yet really able to act in it, so gets so frustrated. I’ve found being able to roll both ways has helped (she can now get onto her tummy to sleep) and I’m told things like being able to sit and then crawl also make them happier (once you’re past the disturbed nights while they learn). We did the same with moving to the toddler seat early and it did help her accept the pram, though naps were still only 30 mins.

Just keep trying stuff, OP. They’re changing all the time. Hang in there.

I sympathise with the lack of daytime naps - it makes such a difference when they are NOT tired and crabby and you feel as if you’re just existing in the afternoon until bedtime!

I did a measure of sleep training at this age with DC3 (after really struggling with DC2 for far too long), and it worked. Naps were all in the cot until she got used to the routine, with sleep bag, blackout blinds etc. For the lunch nap, when she initially was waking after half an hour I’d snuggle a fine muslin against her cheek and use a dummy to help her get back to sleep (we didn’t use the dummy for long, just in these early days). I wouldn’t pick her up but leave my hand on her tummy and sssh her/white noise it. I think what is key here is confidence and persistence - baby will pick up on it.

It did work - took about a week - and daytime naps became something like: 45 mins in the morning, 2h at midday and then 15 mins in late afternoon. Sorting these out helped us enormously at night, too. She still uses the muslin as a sleep comforter - it’s very handy!

I never thought I would but I think I’m just going to have to stick him in a room and let him scream. This is awful.

@Aliceandthemarchhare

I never thought I would but I think I’m just going to have to stick him in a room and let him scream. This is awful.

I think he is too young for any type of cry it out sleep training, it would probably do more harm than good.

I have an almost five month old and he also sleeps pretty well at night, but it changes so quickly! I think we are in a routine and then what he wants is different. He also goes to bed at 9ish, its gradually come forward over time so im not worried that that is late at the minute - it will get earlier.

If it was up to him he wouldn't nap at all, all day! I generally get one longer nap a day but that has to be contact, all others will be 30 mins - from what I have read that is normal. You say you can't force him to nap but I've found with mine thats exactly what I have to do! By various means - car, bouncing the bouncer, pram, wearing him in a sling, rocking, singing, shushing, stroking...you name it!!

He does go to sleep independently at bedtime so he can do it, but at the minute he doesn't want to for naps which sometimes I worry about, but other days I'm just going with.

I dont know if it is worth trying to force him into a nap with a shorter wake window.

One thing to remember is that they haven't read all the websites we have that says they should sleep X hours per day!! Every baby is different. Hard though when they are grouchy due to tiredness I know.

My baby will be 6 months in 2 weeks. To be honest I wing every day. His naps are typically 30-40 minutes. Very very rarely he’ll sleep 1.5 hours if he’s in my arms.

We now co sleep because I’m tired and have a 3 year old. I did all the stressing about sleep with my eldest so I’m more about just getting through the day now.

My baby will wake up about 5ish as he seems to always need a poo at this time. We change him and he’s wide awake but lay him in bed or put him in his next to me and he’ll kick, squeal, laugh, moan for a while whilst I ignore him. When he starts to grumble I bring him back into bed and feed him back to sleep. He usually goes about an hour maybe a little more/less until he needs a sleep again.

How long is his first wake window? I tend to find that the first one is the shortest. If it’s too long for us then it sets the day up to be a bad one.

He then goes 1.5-2.5 hours until his next sleep. I’ve never focused on times (like I did my eldest) but tend to look at wake times which it sounds like you’re doing.

Does he sleep in the pram?

We have lots of sleep associations which isn’t ideal and I’ll get torn apart but it works for us. (I say this as he’s currently sleeping with my boob in his mouth).

White noise does work sometimes for us too.

I’m sorry I don’t have much advice other. He’ll probably be going through a regression right now too. When does his last nap tend to be? Is it likely to be 7ish if he goes to bed at 9ish? Could you try making this his bedtime? I doubt he’ll buy into it at first and it may take a while but worth having a thing about? X

I can’t. This is the problem. (Sorry if this sounds rude I don’t mean it to!) but people say he needs a shorter wake window but if he won’t sleep there is r an awful lot I can do. So now he’s been awake three hours which I know is far too long but he’s just not sleeping.

No last nap is much earlier. Usually around 6.

If he’s been awake since 5 he must be shattered poor thing (you too!). Can you put him down and leave him to it in his cot while you regroup?

I would recommend a dummy for a BF baby who’s used to feeding to sleep. You can support it in place while ssshhing - mine would wail, then suck, then wail again, but eventually took comfort enough to sleep.

6 but yes he is. But he won’t sleep. Or take a dummy.

If I were you I’d maybe just have a few days focusing on that first wake window. After an hour or so do whatever you think might work? Feeding to sleep, dummy, bouncing, rocking, white noise.

It sounds as though you’ve exhausted most things. Their sleep patterns, eating patterns, moods etc change so much and so frequently.

Nothing works. Honestly. He’s sobbing on my shoulder. I am shit at this. Sorry. I’m absolutely desperate

You’re not shit at this - it’s like a designed process that would break anyone! You can’t do anything while you feel like this. Put him down in the cot and let him cry - won’t do him any harm.

Just to say that mine wouldn’t take a dummy either - I had to really work at it, try different ones etc then hold it in place (not force it but kind of hold it there responsively, if that makes sense). But don’t worry about a solution right now. Sympathies OP - it will get better.

I had to put him in a different room in the end and he’s screamed himself to sleep. I feel awful. A mix of angry with myself, so frustrated with him, it’s awful. I really understand how people end up killing babies now. I felt like I hated him.

Hey OP, my LO is 7 months but from day one he was the exact same (although I wasn’t as lucky with nighttime). He only napped for half hours & it was so hard to get anything done as most of the time he would only nap on me. I tried everything: mimicking bedtime routine, white noise, Ferber method.. nothing worked then one day when he was about 6ish months he just started napping for longer & longer (45mins, 1hr, 1 1/2 hours). I’m sorry to say that sometimes it just takes them time 🤷🏼‍♀️

Oh OP I remember this so so well. Being told to sleep in the day when they sleep. I would laugh at the suggestion! Mine stuck to 30-40 mins daytime sleep cycles until about 6 months and then it got better

It will get better and it does get better. You're night shit at this. 4 month sleep regression is awful. Do you have someone that can perhaps have him in the evening or from 5-8 so you can get more sleep overnight and then cope a bit more in the day

At that stage I did one nap in the car too just to ensure he got enough as it was only sure fire way to get a decent nap in for him.

You're not alone and you can do this

@fistasledge

Oh OP I remember this so so well. Being told to sleep in the day when they sleep. I would laugh at the suggestion! Mine stuck to 30-40 mins daytime sleep cycles until about 6 months and then it got better

It will get better and it does get better. You're night shit at this. 4 month sleep regression is awful. Do you have someone that can perhaps have him in the evening or from 5-8 so you can get more sleep overnight and then cope a bit more in the day

At that stage I did one nap in the car too just to ensure he got enough as it was only sure fire way to get a decent nap in for him.

You're not alone and you can do this

Should say you're not shit at this!