Why won’t my daughter follow basic requests?

[EllieQ]

I am really struggling with DD, who is almost 6, and this morning I ended up grabbing her arms and shouting in her face, which has made me feel terrible.

I got angry because I’d asked her to go to the toilet, and she refused. She needed to go to the toilet, because she hadn’t been since she got up at 7.30 (this was at 11), and DH was just about to go in the shower, which almost guarantees DD saying she needs to go. There is an ongoing issue with her leaving it to the last minute, then wetting herself as she rushes to the bathroom, which really upsets her. But she doesn’t seem to make the connection between going before she’s desperate and not having an accident.

Her behaviour is tough in other ways - lots of whinging, getting stroppy when asked to do something like come and eat dinner, and when she kicks off into a full tantrum it goes on for ages and there is no way of calming her down.

We do a lot of warnings, countdowns, saying we’re going to do X then Y, as I can see she struggles with transitions. This morning I told her she could play on the iPad while I was in the shower, then she had to go to the toilet and at least try to have a wee.

Obviously the whole Covid situation with lockdowns and school being closed is hard on her, and I try hard to take this into account, but it’s really hard when everything is a negotiation or a battleground, and sometimes I feel like we walk on eggshells to avoid her kicking off.

She’s an only child (not by choice) and I’m starting to feel that we have spoilt her and let her get away with too much. She was an easy baby and quite an easygoing toddler - there were some tantrums, but all had a logical (for toddlers) reason and she could be distracted and calmed down. This kind of behaviour (having to ask several times/ endless negotiations) started when she was around four. I have read ‘How to talk so little kids will listen’ and try to use the techniques, but it doesn’t seem to make that much difference.

We have no family nearby (my parents are both dead; PIL are 200 miles away and not really helpful when they do visit). DH was made redundant last year after months on furlough, and I’ve been WFH since last March. Obviously we are both stressed, but I need to know how to deal with this and not lose my temper.

I would just like her to go to the toilet when prompted, get dressed/ undressed without any arguments, and come to the table to eat a meal without having to be asked and getting stroppy about it. Is that too much to ask?

Wouldn't we all like our children to do as they are told?
This isn't what you want to hear, but it's typical 6 year old behaviour. They love testing boundaries. You don't have an exceptionally naughty child, you have a normal child.
Grabbing her arms and shouting in her face is completely unacceptable. I would seek parenting classes in how to control your temper, if you have gotten to that stage.

My DS went through a stage like this with toileting. I made him put his own soiled clothes in the machine alone with any cushion covers etc he was sat on at the time. He also had to wash. This wasn't done in a shaming way, I kept quite a neutral tone, just to make him aware that it's far more work to clean up an accident then it is to just go to the toilet. I was quite fortunate in that he did comply with this.

Oh and I did take DS to the Dr to rule out any UTIs etc

What happens if she doesn’t get dressed? So my 3yr old (appreciate she’s younger but maybe this might help), wouldn’t brush her teeth one morning, I said that’s fine but we can’t play until you do. I made calls and went about my business, she tried to play and I just repeated not until you’ve brushed your teeth so stay in your room until you do. Eventually she cracked- harder if somewhere to go but I guess that’s the one positive of a lockdown

@DaisyHeadMaisy

My DS went through a stage like this with toileting. I made him put his own soiled clothes in the machine alone with any cushion covers etc he was sat on at the time. He also had to wash. This wasn't done in a shaming way, I kept quite a neutral tone, just to make him aware that it's far more work to clean up an accident then it is to just go to the toilet. I was quite fortunate in that he did comply with this.

I wouldn't do this...a parent did similar to me, also not in a shaming way, but the shame and mortification I felt then still sticks with me now.

Apologies if this is too naive, but can you not just lead her to the loo when you've decided its time for a visit and tell her to go? You know the firm but pleasant approach?

Sounds typical for her age and pushing boundaries, but I’d check myself for my reaction to her today as seems extreme for 6. I totally get how frustrated you are but that didn’t reach her anything but how to be frustrated herself.

I have 4 boys. Youngest is asd and a bit challenge. Routine, give her one so she knows what you expect and discuss the consequences for Not doing as she’s told don’t give her more than 2 chances, don’t shout but he firm and lay out what you’re asking her to do and and why. She will become secure in the boundaries you set, be fair but consistent. Don’t shout (easier said than than done) acknowledge how she’s feeling and talk about it when a he’s calm later on. Don’t negotiate with her, your word goes and that’s it ( for rules at least)

Sending or a as I know how flipping hard things are just now, your husbands job situation must be really stressful (my brother in law was made redundant last March) poor sister is very stressed. It makes you really wound up and I know I’m snappy just now at times. However if I feel I’m being pushed to my last shred of patience with the kids, I leave the room, go and calm down & have a think about things then go back to it later. It shows the kids you can control your temper/behaviour without losing your temper. It’s not easy and hard as nowhere to escape to either.

I made him put his own soiled clothes in the machine alone with any cushion covers etc he was sat on at the time.

This makes me sad. Even though you don't meant to shame them it does come across that way to them. My bitch of an ExSIL shamed my DN for wetting himself.

I very much went with the ‘natural consequences’ approach with stuff like this. You don’t come to the table, your food will be cold. You don’t get the toilet in time because you’re too busy playing, there will be clothes that need changing and putting in the washing machine. All of which meant less time for doing the things they would like to do. None of this was ever done in a way which involved lots of emotion, no guilting them, it’s just the way things were as a result of how they behaved.

TaraR2020 The calm ‘leading her to the toilet’ approach is what I was trying - it went like this:

• I asked her to come to the toilet before DH went in the shower, and she came upstairs, complaining a bit.
• She said she didn’t need to go, and I said that I’d like her to try, just in case.
• She starting shouting and refusing to go in the bathroom
• I said that I wasn’t going to argue with her about it, she could go into her room or the bathroom, and I’d wait upstairs until she was ready. I went into my bedroom as I was getting annoyed and needed to calm down.
• She followed me in, more shouting, and that’s when I snapped, grabbed her and shouted at her.

She cried, DH cane upstairs and got her calmed down, she went to the toilet, and I cried, then posted on here

She sounds fairly normal.

Shaking her and shouting in her face won’t teach her to go to the toilet in a timely fashion. It will teach her plenty about how to deal with frustration though, and that’s not what you want.

Mine is just coming out the other side of this, she’s 7 next month. Hang in there- it’s incredibly frustrating especially when they get upset about something happening that you said would happen if they didn’t do xyz.

I did a lot of discussing with her when she was calm, and I always apologised if I lose my temper, now she does the same and is much quicker to cool off (and I wouldn’t say I’m sorry I lost my temper it’s just that you made me angry, I would say I’m sorry I shouted, I shouldn’t have done that)

Good luck!

When my kids were tiny I used to search these boards for reassurance that sometimes parenting is really hard, and frustrating, and difficult. I found a lot of helpful things, but some of the answers on here reminded me of the stuff I read that made me feel like the worst parent, and person in the world. OP has had a tough time and the first answer is that she should seek out parenting classes? What even are they? Empathy can get completely lost sometimes.

Thing is, if she doesn't like wetting herself, then that is the natural unpleasant consequence. You can remind her, let it happen, clean up together and continue on with your day. Maybe a bit if extra washing for a short period, but better than feeling angry and nagging without response.

I also don't think you can make them promise at this age to do a job after the nice thing - it sets you both up for failure. So instead of saying she could use the iPad if she went to the toilet after, just say that once she's been to the loo, she can go on the iPad while you shower, as you're worried she'll otherwise need it. You don't then need to get into the endless negotiation you mention (I've been there, as my dc2 is a born lawyer and it's exhausting), I now say I'll tell them twice and that's it - so state it, remind her if she whinges and then go about your shower humming calmly, she knows the deal and it's her choice.

Lockdown parenting is hard, and some children are harder to parent than others. She must be missing friends and structure and feeling the stress of redundancy, as are you - be kind to yourself and each other and keep hoping for a positive announcement on Sunday about back to school!

What about a game - the timer rings - WEE Time lots of fun, you DH Nd DD race to see who gets their first, all wait and wee - and repeat through the day.

ThatsNotTheTeaHunty

So you think I am a bitch for simply asking my 6 year old to put thier clothes in the washing machine? For goodness sake no wonder some adults are totally helpless

Once you have ruled out any medical conditions, why should a child be shown how to clean up after themselves? Of course if it was D&V I cleaned up for him, ran him a lovely bath etc etc but soiling themselves through laziness is a totally different matter.

Have you looked into the watches for toileting?

Make it a star chart. She goes when it buzzes (set 3 times eg first thing, lunch and before bed) without fuss and she gets a star. So many stars gets a reward like a fave film with popcorn.

Same with other things.

Make it about the lack of fuss rather than the action itself so that's what she focuses on.

Natural consequences are best.

"Oh dear, never mind about accident, just clean it up, have a shower and we'll carry on"

If she doesn't come when called for dinner she doesn't get dinner. Any request for snacks is met with a breezy "yes I'm hungry too. Good news is it's lunch, dinner, supper in x amount of time"

Once you've delivered the statements walk away.

The negative cycle often occurs completely by accident as cause and effect and it's not a problem until it's so centred in the intersections that happen it's always gone quite far and is harder to change.

But you and her can do it. Make non compliance such a waste of her time

*shouldn't

@DaisyHeadMaisy

ThatsNotTheTeaHunty

So you think I am a bitch for simply asking my 6 year old to put thier clothes in the washing machine? For goodness sake no wonder some adults are totally helpless

Once you have ruled out any medical conditions, why should a child be shown how to clean up after themselves? Of course if it was D&V I cleaned up for him, ran him a lovely bath etc etc but soiling themselves through laziness is a totally different matter.

Agree.

My ds is autistic but was trained. He was just lazy. Didn't take long for him to work out - wee and wash hands (5 minutes)

5 minutes iPad and accident = about 15 minutes of lost time sorting it.

If she wets herself then try using routine so she goes to the toilet regularly at the same points in her routine every day, often enough not to wet herself, and so it doesn't feel so much like a random interruption that you are imposing in her day for boring complicated grown-up reasons like fitting in with Daddy.

And toilet before treat - toilet first, iPad after.

There might be too much "I'd like you to" and too much explanation. Use fewer words. "Toilet first, then nice-activity". Say her name, say please, but don't put too much fluff around the instruction.

But yes, boundary testing and annoying behaviour is normal. And so is losing the plot and shouting every now and again. Say sorry, have a hug and move on

Thank you everyone. It is reassuring to know that this kind of behaviour is normal.

A few people have mentioned consequences/ natural consequences, but one issue we have is that these don’t seem to bother her. For example: I tell her that she can go on the iPad/ watch TV if she gets dressed/ brushes teeth & hair without any messing about. Then, she starts refusing to get dressed, so I tell her that she will lose out iPad/ TV time if her behaviour continues, she would just say that she doesn’t want to play on the iPad, and probably get worked up and end up having a tantrum.

Likewise, natural consequences like having a cold dinner, wetting herself/ having to wee behind a bush in the park because she refuses to go beforehand, might upset her at the time but don’t seem to stick - if I remind her, she just ignores me or says it didn’t happen.

DD was exactly the same at that age, she's 7 now and it's got a lot easier. What was interesting with her is that she was very unlikely to have an accident at school, but would constantly end up having accidents at home when she couldn't make it to the loo in time (always right outside the bathroom door). So we knew she could do it, she just didn't.

We ended up setting timers and taking her to the loo every 1-2 hours. Eventually it got better and she no longer needed constant reminders.

It is still a work in progress, as we do find she'll leave it late, which means you often come out of the bathroom to find her dancing in the hallway. But no accidents in ages, so have hope OP. It gets better.

Same with the refusing to do what you ask, seems to be a normal (but annoying) phase.

"Without any messing about" is too vague for a consequence. Keep it simple - when she has got dressed, then she can play on her iPad. The longer it takes the longer before she gets it. Setting conseqeuences is for serious and specific misbehaviour. Also, the messing about is getting your attention. As a reward getting your attention right now is going to be well worth losing a bit of iPad time later. Aim to maximally ignore messing about.

if I remind her, she just ignores me or says it didn’t happen.

You aren't supposed to remind her of what she got wrong before, that's unkind. The consequence happens and then you all move on. I can't remember if How To Talk.. has when/then but it's what you need - "WHEN you have gone to the toilet THEN we can go to the park", on repeat.

I don't think "How to Talk..." is especially good for consequences, rewards, etc. Caroline Webster-Stratton's "Incredible Years" is better. Covers the "How to Talk..." stuff and a lot more.

@EllieQ

Thank you everyone. It is reassuring to know that this kind of behaviour is normal.

A few people have mentioned consequences/ natural consequences, but one issue we have is that these don’t seem to bother her. For example: I tell her that she can go on the iPad/ watch TV if she gets dressed/ brushes teeth & hair without any messing about. Then, she starts refusing to get dressed, so I tell her that she will lose out iPad/ TV time if her behaviour continues, she would just say that she doesn’t want to play on the iPad, and probably get worked up and end up having a tantrum.

Likewise, natural consequences like having a cold dinner, wetting herself/ having to wee behind a bush in the park because she refuses to go beforehand, might upset her at the time but don’t seem to stick - if I remind her, she just ignores me or says it didn’t happen.

It sounds like you're getting dragged into negotiations each time.

If she says she doesn't want iPad, then just continue on without it - she's easily old enough to wait while you have a shower without needing entertainment. She will have much more trouble getting worked up if you remain calm, composed and kind but consistent, and don't join the argument. So what if she has a tantrum? I give a hug or touch a shoulder, let them know that I see how sad (/angry) they are feeling and I'm here when they need me, and keep on with my day.

Have you tried just letting it be a bit? State what you want, state why, remind her again (physical contact can really help, I find), then detach a bit.

Also, at 7, having to wee behind a bush at a park, or when her dad is having a shower, or even having a tantrum... They're not really bad things. Sometimes it's about picking your battles, especially with kids like your DD or my DC2 who will otherwise have loads of them.

Have you tried 1-2-3 Magic if you haven't got on with How to Talk.

Things that can work are any sort of reward chart/marble jar.

Now and next ' eg now you are going for a wee, next you have the ipad'

Something used for children with ASD is a visual timetable (not suggesting she has asd, just that parenting techniques that word for asd work for other children too). so rather than lots of verbal back and forth they can see what is on the timetable and just do it. So breakfast, wash, wee, free play, wee, lunch, homeschool, wee, walk (as an example)

Don't remind her.

Outs and about "mum I need a wee". "We'll be will be home in half an hour/ there's a loo at x place well stop when we get there" and don't get drawn into discussion. She wets her self and gets upset then it happens. And if it keeps happening then allow it to keep happening. Sounds awful but it may take it happening in front of a friend when we are allowed out again to stick. Right now the consequence isn't enough to make her change her behaviour and you can't force it to.

And with "you can have iPad after your dressed" say it and disengage. When she starts about not getting dressed and not caring don't even acknowledge it.

Currently she's getting something from this behaviour and you need to find it switch around so she gets something from being do operative.

When we as kids refused to do something and had a natural consequence and got upset my mum use to just shrug and say "well next time you may choose to decide to listen to me!".

Nothing more and nothing less. But it did relate the consequence to the initial behaviour of thinking we knew best!