Why won’t my daughter follow basic requests?

[EllieQ]

I am really struggling with DD, who is almost 6, and this morning I ended up grabbing her arms and shouting in her face, which has made me feel terrible.

I got angry because I’d asked her to go to the toilet, and she refused. She needed to go to the toilet, because she hadn’t been since she got up at 7.30 (this was at 11), and DH was just about to go in the shower, which almost guarantees DD saying she needs to go. There is an ongoing issue with her leaving it to the last minute, then wetting herself as she rushes to the bathroom, which really upsets her. But she doesn’t seem to make the connection between going before she’s desperate and not having an accident.

Her behaviour is tough in other ways - lots of whinging, getting stroppy when asked to do something like come and eat dinner, and when she kicks off into a full tantrum it goes on for ages and there is no way of calming her down.

We do a lot of warnings, countdowns, saying we’re going to do X then Y, as I can see she struggles with transitions. This morning I told her she could play on the iPad while I was in the shower, then she had to go to the toilet and at least try to have a wee.

Obviously the whole Covid situation with lockdowns and school being closed is hard on her, and I try hard to take this into account, but it’s really hard when everything is a negotiation or a battleground, and sometimes I feel like we walk on eggshells to avoid her kicking off.

She’s an only child (not by choice) and I’m starting to feel that we have spoilt her and let her get away with too much. She was an easy baby and quite an easygoing toddler - there were some tantrums, but all had a logical (for toddlers) reason and she could be distracted and calmed down. This kind of behaviour (having to ask several times/ endless negotiations) started when she was around four. I have read ‘How to talk so little kids will listen’ and try to use the techniques, but it doesn’t seem to make that much difference.

We have no family nearby (my parents are both dead; PIL are 200 miles away and not really helpful when they do visit). DH was made redundant last year after months on furlough, and I’ve been WFH since last March. Obviously we are both stressed, but I need to know how to deal with this and not lose my temper.

I would just like her to go to the toilet when prompted, get dressed/ undressed without any arguments, and come to the table to eat a meal without having to be asked and getting stroppy about it. Is that too much to ask?

@itsgettingwierd

Don't remind her.

Outs and about "mum I need a wee". "We'll be will be home in half an hour/ there's a loo at x place well stop when we get there" and don't get drawn into discussion. She wets her self and gets upset then it happens. And if it keeps happening then allow it to keep happening. Sounds awful but it may take it happening in front of a friend when we are allowed out again to stick. Right now the consequence isn't enough to make her change her behaviour and you can't force it to.

And with "you can have iPad after your dressed" say it and disengage. When she starts about not getting dressed and not caring don't even acknowledge it.

Currently she's getting something from this behaviour and you need to find it switch around so she gets something from being do operative.

When we as kids refused to do something and had a natural consequence and got upset my mum use to just shrug and say "well next time you may choose to decide to listen to me!".

Nothing more and nothing less. But it did relate the consequence to the initial behaviour of thinking we knew best!

Yes, all of this ^

You’re getting drawn into negotiations and making it seem like the consequences matter to you. Stay calm and try not to respond emotionally or making it seem like she’s doing you a favour.

I have a 5 and 7 year it sounds pretty normal. They know best, and everything is a drama. Lockdown has made their behaviour significantly worse.

To be honest, assuming there’s no underlying issue which I’ve missed, I wouldn’t be arguing with them about going for a wee. They’re old enough to understand the bathroom
Is busy and they’ll have to wait. If we’re about to embark on a long journey, then it’s a different matter.

I do find that not shouting produces better results, although it’s hard. And not getting into long winded debates about it. “Spend 5 minutes getting washed and dressed, then we X”

Turn it into a competition where they can prove you wrong. I bet you can’t go upstairs and wee without me hearing you if I close my eyes etc!! Can you do a wee for longer than 10 seconds? Etc

@imalmostthere

Wouldn't we all like our children to do as they are told? This isn't what you want to hear, but it's typical 6 year old behaviour. They love testing boundaries. You don't have an exceptionally naughty child, you have a normal child. Grabbing her arms and shouting in her face is completely unacceptable. I would seek parenting classes in how to control your temper, if you have gotten to that stage.

What a nasty answer and total rubbish, please ignore OP.

It's a bloody nightmare for little ones of this age at the moment, just carry on doing your best and hold on. Going back to school and getting back to normality will sort a lot of this out.

Sounds like typical behaviour to me

Asking her to calm down and then losing your rag when she doesn’t teaches her to lose her rag when she’s feeling adverse emotions !

They mirror what they see, more than what they are told.

Walk away
When you are losing control and then return when you are in control
And take it from there !

I would just like her to go to the toilet when prompted, get dressed/ undressed without any arguments, and come to the table to eat a meal without having to be asked and getting stroppy about it. Is that too much to ask?

Yes that is too much to ask as she is a 6 year old child and not a robot. I don’t think your daughter sounds spoilt - just normal.

Humans don’t always behave perfectly - as you saw yourself when you got frustrated with her and shouted at her. It is even harder for a 6 year old to manage their emotions and behaviour.

Did you apologise to her for getting so angry at her. Most parents get too cross at times and it is important to say sorry and explain to the child that you know what you did was not the right thing to do and that you will try harder to manage your own behaviour.

Have you tried a reward chart - so she can work towards a little gift with good behaviour?

Lol. Wouldn’t we all?! Not to sound harsh, but this is what most kids are like!! Or at least mine. And others I’ve spoken to parents of. Of course there are some who just listen. But many are like mine who never do anything the first time you ask. I have to ask/tell my kids to do everything 109 times before they listen. Unfortunately, I have to shout sometimes. They need to be told many many times to brush their teeth, get dressed; put their shoes on, go to the park, time to go home. Stop play fighting; stoping tickling eachother. Time for bed. Repeat repeat and it drives me nuts!

Stop pestering her to go to the loo? Natural consequences are better.

I did apologise to her. And I take the point that I’m not modelling calm behaviour to her when I shout

I’ve been thinking about the comments and suggestions, and I’ve realised that the big issue for us is the tantrums/ meltdowns. If we do some of the things suggested (natural consequences/ two warnings then detaching/ reward charts/ walking away when she’s getting riled up), she usually ends up having a screaming tantrum because she’s already upset/ angry/ worked up, so the techniques don’t seem to help as she’s too upset to respond to them.

Her tantrums seem extreme to me eg: ten solid minutes of shouting and screaming, while throwing stuff around her room. Once they start, it’s impossible to calm her down. So, if she refuses to get dressed and I leave the room saying I’ll wait until she’s ready, she then starts shouting ‘I want to get dressed!’ As soon as I come back in saying ‘Ok, let’s get dressed’, she’ll start screaming that she won’t get dressed, until I leave again and she switches to wanting to get dressed. This can go on and on.

It’s really hard to deal with, and I suppose that’s why we end up with all these negotiations to avoid triggering a tantrum. But that’s not really working, either

Don’t go back in? Just let her scream and get it all out of her system. It’s not about getting changed. She seems to want control over things. Could you offer her choices between two things so she feels she’s got some control over her life? Going head to head with her over having a wee is bound to backfire.

I have three DC. They're older now, but DC1, who was the easiest and most compliant in most ways, was a bit like this about going to the toilet. I don't know why but he just HATED to be told to try and have a wee. I think that if he couldn't look far enough into the future and see that he would need one soon, it seemed totally pointless to him to go to the toilet and 'try' and do a wee when he just didn't need one.

Personally I would remove that source of conflict completely and stop asking her to 'try'. All I would do is remind her that someone is going into the shower now - good opportunity to go to the loo as she won't be able to for the next 15 mins - and leave it at that. If she wets herself, so be it. She'll learn at some point, until then this is causing more stress than it's worth.

Sympathies OP my 6 year old drives me insane half the time, could you please get dressed!!!!!!! My goodness they can be hard work.

My 5Yo DD is so similar. We have found that a huge amount of the behaviour issues seems to be related to actually needing the loo. About a year ago we started being really really consistent that she had to go to the loo immediately after getting up, and before lunch and dinner and bed. God the arguments. One thing that seemed to help was allowing her to define what we said to remind her to go to the loo. It sounds weird and indulgent, but it turned out that she found 'time to go to the loo' a less stressful thing to hear and so was more willing to go. Her general behaviour has improved so much and I'm sure it's because of regular toileting.
Currently our new problem is that she doesn't sit for long enough to relax and let go and claims she's 'tried' then has an emergency/accident/meltdown. We're getting her to count 60 breaths and if no wee by the end we set a 15 min timer to go and try again.
Anyway, good luck. It's stressful. You'll get her there.

So, if she refuses to get dressed and I leave the room saying I’ll wait until she’s ready, she then starts shouting ‘I want to get dressed!’ As soon as I come back in saying ‘Ok, let’s get dressed’, she’ll start screaming that she won’t get dressed, until I leave again and she switches to wanting to get dressed. This can go on and on.

I don't understand this part about you going back in? Just leave her to get dressed? Surely at 6 she's capable of dressing herself? Maybe some odd outfit choices but hey it's lockdown so it doesn't matter. Why do you need to be in the room at all? Just tell her to get dressed and leave. She doesn't need you there, it's all about control I think.

My eldest struggles with transitions, hyper focus to extremes , tantrums beyond his age group, oppositional behaviour... he has been diagnosed with adhd and asd (high functioning). Not saying that is what is going on. But we are four years ahead of you and I had no idea. I wished I had. I was often the one shouting in our house... not proud. But you are human. It is fucking hard right now. Just be aware as some of these things jumped out at me reading your post.

Once they start, it’s impossible to calm her down. So, if she refuses to get dressed and I leave the room saying I’ll wait until she’s ready, she then starts shouting ‘I want to get dressed!’ As soon as I come back in saying ‘Ok, let’s get dressed’, she’ll start screaming that she won’t get dressed, until I leave again and she switches to wanting to get dressed. This can go on and on.

OP my daughter is EXACTLY the same, along with all of the other behaviours you’ve identified. I feel for you so much and anyone judging you and telling you that you need parenting classes can bugger off till they’ve walked a mile in your/our shoes. Lockdown is a fucking nightmare if you have this behaviour directed at you 24/7.

My DD is adopted and I’ve always thought a lot of her behaviour stems from a very high need for control which is probably related to attachment stuff. I don’t want to jump to the ‘underlying issues’ thing with your DD but could there be anything going on for her?

I'm a natural consequences fan.

I would get her to get dressed before coming out of her bedroom- she can choose the clothes.

I don't argue about meal times. Sit at the table or take yourself to bed. Eat, don't eat-dont comment.

I would not offer a reward, let her ask for something first.

Offer her 2 choices as much as possible. Write a list of things that need to be done and let her tick them off.

@imalmostthere what a sanctimonious response ! I'm sure many patents have snapped and shouted especially at the moment doesn't make us terrible parents that need parenting classes.

@ThatsNotTheTeaHunty

I made him put his own soiled clothes in the machine alone with any cushion covers etc he was sat on at the time.

This makes me sad. Even though you don't meant to shame them it does come across that way to them. My bitch of an ExSIL shamed my DN for wetting himself.

Shaming and getting them to help the clean up is very very different...

My five year old has stolen my last bit of sanity, you’re not alone OP. They’re infuriating.

I go with natural consequences, so yesterday my son wanted to go to the park but he wouldn’t put his wellies on, I told him if he didn’t put them on he couldn’t go to the park as he needs wellies to keep his feet safe/dry. I then ignored him for a few minutes so he could make a decision, the wellies weren’t put on so I went to the park without him.

I tried to make button and felt flowers with him this week, he purposely tipped the buttons on the floor, so until he had picked them all up we couldn’t continue making flowers or get any other toys out. Again I left him to make his own decision, he left them then went back about half an hour later and finally picked them all up.

If he wees himself he puts his clothes in the wash just as he does with any of his clothes that need washing, I’m not his maid.

You don’t realise it but everytime you go back in when she doesn’t want to get dressed, and everytime you repeat something you’re actually riling her up. It’s essentially a well rehearsed performance for both of you. You’re also unwittingly teaching her to act that way, we’ve all fallen into that trap many times.

If he ‘starts’ there is no going back as its a process he has to go through, he doesn’t however like being on his own, so I stay in the room and quietly wait until he is able to express a feeling, ask for a cuddle etc. Sometimes it takes five minutes and some rather impressive death glares, other times it can take 30-40 minutes.

Remember she has the emotional intelligence of a six year old, yet you an adult are expecting her to have more emotional control than you.

Giving a certain amount of control is good in some situations, so with the toilet thing her Dad can say “you either need to try and have a wee now, or you can wait until I am finished in the bathroom”. With dinner I give my son the illusion of choice, I have meals drawn on paper plates, so today I will give him two plates and he can pick what to have for dinner, however they use virtually the same ingredients so I’m not having to change what I use, I just cook it slightly differently, I then velcro it in the kitchen, if he changes his mind tough.

With clothes if it isn’t a school day he can wear what he likes as long as he has a top and bottom on. I don’t really care when he gets dressed but he must be dressed to leave the flat or sit on the balcony and he has to wear pants to leave his room.

I also use PECS, so on his wardrobe they show the order to get dressed in, in the bathroom they show how to wash his hands etc. So if he has had a meltdown, feels stubborn etc when he has forgotten what to do/the next step he can ask me or he can follow the cards. We have some by the door which show the steps he needs to take before he can leave the flat etc. We also have some based on behaviour/feelings that he can give to me, so upset, tired, happy etc if he doesn’t want to use his words.

@ImnotCarolineHirons

So, if she refuses to get dressed and I leave the room saying I’ll wait until she’s ready, she then starts shouting ‘I want to get dressed!’ As soon as I come back in saying ‘Ok, let’s get dressed’, she’ll start screaming that she won’t get dressed, until I leave again and she switches to wanting to get dressed. This can go on and on.

I don't understand this part about you going back in? Just leave her to get dressed? Surely at 6 she's capable of dressing herself? Maybe some odd outfit choices but hey it's lockdown so it doesn't matter. Why do you need to be in the room at all? Just tell her to get dressed and leave. She doesn't need you there, it's all about control I think.

I am embarrassed to admit this, but we still help her to get dressed and undressed even though she’s almost 6 As getting dressed/ undressed is one of the trigger points for a tantrum, it’s easier if we help her. She picks her outfit, then I have to talk through the whole process (put your leggings on/ put your top on) and help with tricky bits.

Plus, once she’s in tantrum mode she is too upset to do anything - sometimes she tries taking clothes off/ putting them on and gets stuck, then gets more upset.

@mrsminiegg

My eldest struggles with transitions, hyper focus to extremes , tantrums beyond his age group, oppositional behaviour... he has been diagnosed with adhd and asd (high functioning). Not saying that is what is going on. But we are four years ahead of you and I had no idea. I wished I had. I was often the one shouting in our house... not proud. But you are human. It is fucking hard right now. Just be aware as some of these things jumped out at me reading your post.

I have wondered about ASD, but hadn’t considered ADHD. She is well-behaved in school (when schools are actually open!), but can be difficult for us, and I know that can be a sign.

OP my 5 year old is exactly the same. I have no advice except that they will grow out of it

@EllieQ

I did apologise to her. And I take the point that I’m not modelling calm behaviour to her when I shout

I’ve been thinking about the comments and suggestions, and I’ve realised that the big issue for us is the tantrums/ meltdowns. If we do some of the things suggested (natural consequences/ two warnings then detaching/ reward charts/ walking away when she’s getting riled up), she usually ends up having a screaming tantrum because she’s already upset/ angry/ worked up, so the techniques don’t seem to help as she’s too upset to respond to them.

Her tantrums seem extreme to me eg: ten solid minutes of shouting and screaming, while throwing stuff around her room. Once they start, it’s impossible to calm her down. So, if she refuses to get dressed and I leave the room saying I’ll wait until she’s ready, she then starts shouting ‘I want to get dressed!’ As soon as I come back in saying ‘Ok, let’s get dressed’, she’ll start screaming that she won’t get dressed, until I leave again and she switches to wanting to get dressed. This can go on and on.

It’s really hard to deal with, and I suppose that’s why we end up with all these negotiations to avoid triggering a tantrum. But that’s not really working, either

So don't go back in.

"Wahhhhhh I won't to get dressed"

"We'll get dressed then and I'll be downstairs when you've finished"

You sound completely stick in a cycle where you are worried about a tantrum before you've even asked her to do something.

You need to break that.

So she has a screaming fit? So what? Plenty of kids do. Before you can possibly know if it's more than usual behaviour you need to take the control she has from these tantrums away. Currently she gets to dancing to her tune like the Hokey Cokey (in and out her bedroom) all over putting on what probably amounts to 5 pieces of clothing?

You can even say at 9am. "Right get dressed and you can have an hour iPad from 9.39-10.30" then she'll see that if she acts like a Wally for 1.5 hours she's only ruining it for herself.

Just remember when you start disengaging and stepping back it'll escalate for a while. She'll push and push to see how far she has to go to get you to start pandering to her again.

I suggest a nice thermal lidded cup so you can sit in the garden and ignore it with a coffee if needs be