Controlled Crying Questions

[PeacefulInTheDeep]

DH and I are at our wits end with our DD's sleep and in the next few days will be trying controlled crying. No judgement please - I know CC isn't popular on MN but we're out of options.

I have a couple of questions which I can't seem to find the answer to, so I'm hoping someone here might have the experience to help me.

1. DD currently sleeps overnight and for about half of her naps in the bedside crib in our bedroom. The rest of her naps are in the carrier or pram. Do we need to let her have some naps in the cot in her room to get her used to it as a sleep environment before we do CC? Or do we just put her in there the first night we do CC?

1. I've seen conflicting advice on whether to do CC at bedtime only or whether to do it for naps too after the first night. What are people's experiences of this?

I want to make this as effective as possible for everyone involved, so any advice will be greatly appreciated. I've posted in both Sleep and parenting for maximum traffic.DH and I are at our wits end with our DD's sleep and in the next few days will be trying controlled crying. No judgement please - I know CC isn't popular on MN but we're out of options.

I have a couple of questions which I can't seem to find the answer to, so I'm hoping someone here might have the experience to help me.

1. DD currently sleeps overnight and for about half of her naps in the bedside crib in our bedroom. The rest of her naps are in the carrier or pram. Do we need to let her have some naps in the cot in her room to get her used to it as a sleep environment before we do CC? Or do we just put her in there the first night we do CC?

1. I've seen conflicting advice on whether to do CC at bedtime only or whether to do it for naps too after the first night. What are people's experiences of this?

I want to make this as effective as possible for everyone involved, so any advice will be greatly appreciated. I've posted in both Sleep and Parenting for maximum traffic.

Also I would 100% do the same thing at every nap and at bedtime so the baby is totally sure of what’s to happen when she goes to bed to sleep. She doesn’t really know or care if it’s a nap or bedtime.

@Bananarama12

I'm not against CC but I did it when DS was nearly 8 months old and in his own room. I would wait a bit longer (I know its hard, believe me).

This is exactly what I was going to say.

I'm a big fan of CC when done right but I think 5.5 months is too young.

Thank you all once again for your responses. It's really helpful to have input from some different perspectives. For those asking what we'd gain by doing CC, I've realised that by not giving the full picture I'm coming across somewhat callous and like I'm not willing to spend 20 minutes settling DD at bedtime. That's not the case at all, and hopefully this explanation will give a better picture of the issues we're facing. The problem is not how she's settled to sleep, it's the fact that she won't stay asleep.

2 weeks ago, DD would only nap for 30 minutes at a time. Bedtime was a nightmare, with me spending an hour or more comforting an inconsolable baby, only for her to wake up again 30 minutes later. Another hour of settling and she'd finally be asleep for the night. Most nights she'd wake for a feed at some point, but settle easily afterwards.

We assumed overtiredness, and began working on naps. She's had a nap in the carrier every day as it's the only way she'll sleep more than an hour. DH has been an absolute hero and had her in the carrier for 3.5 hours at a time on some days.

We've seen an improvement in naps in the last 5 days. Her first nap of the day is now about 45 minutes to an hour. On Monday she slept for 1.5 hours in the pram while we were walking. Bedtime is also better, with the initial settling taking 20-30 minutes.

However, nights have become worse. She’s still waking 30-45 minutes after falling asleep at bedtime. She's waking more in the night, and just won’t settle; she is wide awake the moment I put her down, and the white noise and dummy have no effect. Last night I settled and put her down four times in a row before giving up. I had to just put her in the crib and lie next to her until she was tired enough for me to settle her back to sleep. She was awake from 11.30 to 2, and then again between 5 and 6. Nights like this have become the new normal and I’m a zombie.

So this is why we’re considering giving CC a go. I feel that if she could settle herself to sleep, then she could work her way through at least some of the night wakings, unless hungry of course. And she might actually be capable of doing a long nap on her own too.

Thank you @GenevaMaybe for the ‘spaced soothing’ term. This is a good description of what I want to try if we don’t see any improvement over the next week. I’ve no intention of leaving my baby crying her heart out; just giving her the opportunity to have a grizzle and a moan and get herself off to sleep. If it escalated to actual proper crying, we’d call it off. I think she’s ready to settle herself as she tries during the night, she possibly just needs the opportunity and support to do it rather than me jumping in and doing it for her just to try to get us all some more sleep.

Thank you for the success stories @devildeepbluesea and @Thirtyrock39. It’s really reassuring to hear exactly how it’s worked for some, although I am cautious about doing it so young.

@BumbleNova My understanding of gradual retreat is that it involves a lot of waiting in the bedroom. Can you do it just at bedtime, or do you need to do the same for naps too? I’m happy to consider this for bedtime but it’s just not feasible during the day, as I have a 2yo DS to supervise too. That’s another reason we’re considering CC, to potentially get her sleeping independently sooner and minimising disruption all round.

I’ve been using the Huckleberry app to track sleep and monitor awake windows. Having looked at the data for the last 3 days (where we’ve had the worst nights) I’m wondering if we’ve gone too far in the other direction and maybe she’s undertired? Over the last 3 days she’s napped for 3-4 hours each day, but only managed 8-9 overnight. The previous days with 2.5-2.75 hours of naps, she’s slept 10-10.5 hours overnight. She's had 2.5 hours of naps today, so we'll see what tonight holds.

We can’t do CC until next weekend at the earliest, so in the meantime we’ll continue to work on naps, and try moving her into her own room to see if that helps. I’d love to keep waiting till she’s a bit older, but I certainly can’t continue with the way things have been for the last few days.

Waking after one sleep cycle at night is usually because of overtiredness. What are her naps like during the day?

Babies at your dd age waking in the night is a natural defence against sids.
I won't comment on CC, but please consider waiting a while longer before you start. I'd try and hold on until 12 months if you can.

The book 'teach your child to sleep' by The Millpond Clinic gives lots of different methods to help with your child's sleep, it describes both 'controlled crying' and 'gradual retreat' as well as giving factual information about sleep at different ages and stages. It was a complete game changer for us. It has flow charts to help you choose the best solution so really useful when you are sleep deprived.

I'm indifferent about CC but I was in a similar boat to you and through research found that I was the problem. I was allowing my DD to eat when she wanted, drink as much formula as and when she wanted and sleep whenever she wanted to. The poor monkey had no idea what she should be doing and when, so I googled some routines, picked one, stuck with it and since 7 months she has slept 7-6.30 and now at 15 months has one nap a day for two hours at 1.00pm. Why don't you try establishing a routine whilst moving your baby into their own room and in a couple of months try CC if no improvement.

I feel stressed reading your posts about your DD. My advice would be to stop the timer and the apps. They sound like they are adding stress to an already stressful situation. Babies aren't machines. Sleep is a skill and they get there in the end. Adapt your behaviours to be able to function.

Would massively recommend-
Lowering expectations (you sound like you are doing really well, especially with a toddler)
Not looking at your phone at all overnight
Not checking or recording times of night time wakings (it won't change anything)
If you have a clock in the room turn it away
Early nights for you
Co-sleeping safely when really required

My DD2 is the same age as yours. DD1 didn't sleep through till aged 2 and I tried every strategy going. Then once her understanding reached a certain point she just got it.
Sleep deprivation is tough but I've found it much easier just going with it this time rather than fighting a losing battle.

My DS was still waking every 2-3 hours at that point and still having multiple feeds through the night.

I'm not against CC, but I think you need to seriously adjust your expectations of a young baby.

Lack of sleep is horrid! But your little doesn’t sound like she needs many tweaks to her routine to make it work? We read The Sleep Solution which doesn’t use CC but does give good ideas on routine. We just accepted she was still learning to link her sleep cycles and still needed her mummy. From 12 months she just handles it all herself, self settles, sleeps through and doesn’t really want to cosleep with mummy now. Which I’m more sad about then I care to admit.

Just in case it helps, obviously all babies are different!

Good luck. Xx

1 of my 3 was a bad sleeper, it's hard. .
We did try lots things but honestly found stress of 'how to do it' harder then the actual crying. Tension between my husband & I when tried controlled crying awful.
Unfortunately I feel time is the only solution.

A lot of it is their personality, my kid who was bad sleeper is shy, fearful, needs encouragement & support. Finds it hard to switch off always thinking, reading ect.
Is also a very kind loving considerate child I joke that because he was held, rocked, shusshed, tip toed around for so long. Who still comes into my bed sometimes when worried, scared, too cold, too hot ...
Moved him to a bed early 13 months helped with sleeping thru night and now (6!!!) for the first time in life expressed tiredness and wanting to go to sleep.

Sleep waxes and wanes naturally, OP. If it's been worse the last few days there's likely a reason. Teething? About to start with an illness? Changes at home?

Babies don't cry for no reason, sometimes they just need a little extra love, even if it's not obvious to us adults why that is. Personally, I've never had the heart to let them suffer through on their own. They're so helpless and you're literally all they have- put yourself in your baby's place for a bit. What would it be like if something was upsetting you but you couldn't do anything about it or communicate about it and because it wasn't immediately obvious what the problem was, people periodically left you to cry in a room by yourself in the hope that eventually you'd give up asking for help? Pretty brutal.

Hope she slept better last night.

If you are looking for a routine that works at this age, I would go for
7am wake up and milk
9.15-10am nap in the cot
10.30am milk
12.30-2.30 nap in the cot
2.30pm milk
4.45-5pm nap in the sling or buggy
5.30pm milk
6pm bath
6.30pm milk
7pm bed in the cot

I agree that waking after one sleep cycle is usually over tiredness. I found awake windows a lot more important at this age than overall nap times (although that’s important too). I would try shortening the length of time between last nap and bedtime. Or trying for a third power nap later in the day.

Lots going on at this age, development wise and that can mess with sleep.

I did it with both of mine at around 8/9 months it took no longer than 40 minutes for them to fall asleep and both slept within minutes by day three. My younger of the 2 was a nightmare to get to sleep them woke up numerous times in the night, he now sleeps for around 11/12 hours at night and has a 3 hour nap in the day and really loves sleeping in his cot undisturbed. I echo that all family/friends I know who have tried it have been successful. No3 is 2 months and I will definitely be doing it again. Good luck x

@GenevaMaybe

If you are looking for a routine that works at this age, I would go for 7am wake up and milk 9.15-10am nap in the cot 10.30am milk 12.30-2.30 nap in the cot 2.30pm milk 4.45-5pm nap in the sling or buggy 5.30pm milk 6pm bath 6.30pm milk 7pm bed in the cot

What is the routine based in Geneva? After a lot of consideration I do think my problems with DD (7.5 months) and sleep are linked to a lack of routine and just letting her do things as and when she wants to so we have been looking into setting a routine but I just don't know where to start!

@zaffa We followed the Little Ones routine. It wasn’t a magic bullet but it did help me get to grips with awake windows etc. It’s a similar routine to the one listed above.

Roughly it’s
Awake 7am (never quite nailed this but it’s 6.45 now so close enough)
Nap 9.30-10am
Nap 12.30-2.30pm
Nap 4.30/40-5pm (advise dropping this by around 8 months. My DS dropped it at 6 months)
Bed 7pm

I’m afraid I can’t remember the milk and meal time suggestions around it.

If baby spelt slightly more or less, you just shift bedtime earlier or later accordingly, avoiding going over the maximum sleep window for the age.

Thank you all for your input and for sharing your experiences. We've now decided not to try CC just yet.

I hope you can see that considering doing CC came from a place of desperation. Two weeks of working on improving quality and length of naps to avoid overtiredness, and then finding nights getting worse was very frustrating.

But we've just had two much better nights, and I can think more clearly now. I would love to get DD into a routine like the ones @GenevaMaybe and @FizzingWhizzbee123 have suggested - my DS was on similar at this age. I really feel that the key to doing this is for DD to be able to self settle. If she can't link sleep cycles then she's not going to have that long nap in the middle of the day.

So we're going for a gentler approach and are going to do pick up put down next weekend. She can grizzle and fuss but as soon as she gets actually upset, I'll be there to comfort and calm her. Between now and then, we'll get her used to being in her own room and keep supporting her through naps as we have been.

Good plan OP. Be kind yourself it's far from easy but everything is a phase x

I'm not against CC but am so relieved you have put that on ice for now, she's too young.

I know how easy it is to become obsessed with sleep and what might work and what has changed and how come this week is different to last week etc.

I think you need to let go of self settling for now. I think that's an unrealistic expectation for your baby's age. Her sleep sounds normal for her age, that doesn't mean I don't think you should try and encourage it into a pattern that is less difficult for you but I do disagree self-settling is the way to do that.
Find a routine that works for you and encourage her into that. If you would like her to have a long nap and she wakes too early comfort her back to sleep however whichever way works. I fed mine back to sleep for a long time. Then wake her up at the end of nap time. Eventually they just can't resist. If a routine is really solid and they've spent days/weeks sleeping at approximately the same time that just takes over, or it at least makes it a hell of a lot easier.

This is not easy or quick but I believe it is age appropriate. A PP mentioned Little Ones, I think that's a good routine and resource but so are many others.

I am absolutely not against CC but I think it should be a last resort for initial sleep at bedtime/naps after everything else is in place and the child is old enough. I think you're not there yet although I know 5.5 months was a real low point for me and I was desperately looking for something that would help. I remember being on my hands and knees on the floor sobbing that I felt like I was stuck in a nightmare where I wasn't allowed to sleep.

I did CC months later and I still think it was an appropriate thing to do. It wouldn't have been the right thing earlier. Good luck.

Oh also, you haven't mentioned feeding I think? What's her feeding like and in relation to her sleep?

Yes, it can take a little work to help teach baby to link sleep cycleS and the big lunch time nap likely won’t happen straight away until this is resolved. But you’ll get there and you’ll be glad when you do. In the mean time, keep a third nap to avoid over tiredness at bedtime.

There are gradual withdrawal methods that are quite gentle to help teach a baby to start settling themselves. Good luck!