can we afford to have a 2nd child in London?

[bubblebee40]

DH and I were discussing the idea of having another child last night and turns out he thinks we really can't afford it. We already have a two-year-old DD and had assumed we'd have another, but now DH is adament that we just dont have the money. Tried to do the sums and I do see his point but at the same time also a bit sad for DD as I think that she would have to have a sibling, so for example - our current take home is 6k per month and mortgage plus nursery come to 3.2k. Both of us work full time in jobs where you cant go p/t and our salaries wont go up by much in the next few years, plus it would mean having to leave our current two-bed flat and move out of the area.

Is having another child really expensive or is DH being unreasonable? Our friends have all either moved out of London when the kids came along or earn enough to put theirs through prep school. Does it get 'cheaper' once they get a little bit older?

If we’d stuck with one, we worked out we could afford private school - because it was the same as the very expensive nursery we used!

But we didn’t want that financial burden and - like I said - were very happy to drop it.

Yes we can’t rely on grandparents forever either. We don’t use them for childcare so we can work, mostly so we can get a break (with the odd holiday day so we can work). It would be more expensive for a babysitter, but not unaffordable (and we probably wouldn’t do it often!).

I agree with onlyfools also!

*school holiday day that is

Yeah, you earn good salaries, you could afford a second child if you so wished.
Your views of the finances are likely affected by your relatively wealthy social circle.
Lots of options. You said part time hours are not possible, but would it be an option for both of you to work a 4 day week and cut childcare costs?
Cheaper - which doesn't necessarily mean inferior - childcare options
We found a 2 bed flat fine with 2 children for quite a few years. Close to grandparents doesn't have to mean incredibly close - you can consider cheaper parts of London now or later keeping the journey for your parents in mind

I always thought that we earned ok - but we only bought our first place recently and had our first quite late.

@OnlyFoolsnMothersonly - thats a really good way of thinking about it. Thanks! In our case, DD is definitely an extravert and lights up when there are other kids around, but DH is an introvert and so doesnt see the need for another kid or anyone else really. he's love the lockdown and WFH - whereas DD and I have found it pretty hard.

@AstonishingMouse - I feel like we are the only ones with grandparents living right bang in the centre of london....well they downsized when we all left but still. From their house, we couldn't even afford a three-bed in zone 2 or zone 3 - crazy times.

Not sure if we have a wealthy circle of friends - those are just he ones we know living in London. Most of my close friends are now outside London and work in schools, museums, universities etc so hardly wealthy

www.ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/where_do_you_fit_in
Where do you and your friends fit in here?
I'm not suggesting you are extremely rich - but probably relatively affluent compared to most of the UK population. We compare ourselves to the people we know. If you knew more non professional people you might feel your relative wealth a bit more!

Is the issue that DH doesn't really want another child and you do?

AstonishingMouse that’s really interesting that link, thank you.

@AstonishingMouse - it is an interesting link but it doesn't take into account our biggest expense i.e. mortgage and childcare. An equally interesting page is www.zoopla.co.uk/house-prices/. We could have afforded a house outright outside London but because our jobs are London based we cant and have a massive debt. Our monthly income means that we can't afford two train tickets coming into London plus two sets of childcare.

Most of my friends' mortgage outside london is 700 per month whereas mine is 1500 plus their childcare is cheaper. so whilst our salaries are ok for the UK, our outgoings because of London are also super crazy.

Is the issue genuinely the money or actually that DH doesn't really want another child? I suggest you have a proper conversation about this. Money can be jigged around but not wanting another kid is a different issue. As is your desire to have one.

I would say that having another kid is not just about providing the current one with a playmate but also creating a family unit that will hopefully be lifelong for them. When you are old and infirm your DD will bear the burden alone if she is an only, for example.

OP where in London are you living if you don’t mind me asking? I know London is an expensive city, our nursery is £70 a day, ok I have a small mortgage, I also have a small house. But your husband and you are crazy if you think everyone in London is raising more than 1 child on over 100k

i really dont think that having 100k is 'little' money and in fact I had assumed that it would be fine, its DH that thinks we might struggle. 3k on childcare and 1.5k on mortgage does only leave us with 1.5 for everything else inc bills, food, car. But again its probably just harder when they are little. We live between zone 1/2 but the gap between a two or three bed is pretty big. There simply arent that many ok 3 bed houses on for 600k in an ok area with schools and ok transport connections but we can probably manage in our two-bed flat

or more like 550k which is what our flat cost us two years ago....

but its probably also a good point that we need to sit down and really talk about it properly.

We have just had our second. We’re on about 75% of your take-home pay in normal times, with a slightly lower mortgage. We have an age gap of 4.5 years so eldest is (normally) in school.

You could afford a second. It would be a stretch for a few years. But you definitely have options. If you want more space, you could move further out, although you may need to factor in commuting costs.

Could you look at other employers who may be more flexible?

Have you considered a childminder? That is an expensive nursery. Childminders may cost less and be more flexible. We are going to try to shave some money off the bill by WFH on childcare days to do the morning school run before dropping DC2 at the childminder. That way, we won’t pay for morning wraparound care and it will save quite a bit. With those costs, I’d consider a nanny.

You will manage, and the obscene childcare costs are only for a few years. The question is which you’d regret more, not having a second child, or having a tight couple of years.

For me, I always wanted a second and took the view that we would just have to make it work, as it felt someone was missing from our family, if you see what I mean. If we hadn’t gone for it, there would always have been an empty chair at our table, to me.

Yes, I live in London with 3 children, I'm well aware that property prices here mean we feel less rich than those on similar or lower salaries do out of London.
Still think your finances will allow you to have a 2nd child if you both want to.
Housing alternatives if you feel you need more space in a couple of years include a 3bed garden flat - 550k would do well for this in areas I think are definitely OK.
Childcare costs may be high short term but will reduce quickly and probably don't need to be 3k at any point.

Having a second child is obviously a huge personal choice.

We had one child and never intended to have another, it was the right decision for us, we could have 'afforded' another but it's not just about money.

We were able to provide our child with a lot of personal attention, it must be easier to devote your time and energy to one child than more (not saying it's right or wrong, just easier). You can't assume that siblings will always get on or 'play nicely'. My DS always found it easy to make friends and had/has a wide circle of friends, interests and hobbies.

Financially it was easier, our mortgage was paid off in our early 40s.

If you really want another child you can probably make the finances work ... but don't just have one because 'everyone we know has more than one child'.

@bubblebee40 hi sorry to crash this thread. In the same situation as you, own a 2 bed london flat and don't see how I can ever afford another child as a 3 bed house in my area of zone 3 is 800k-1 million.

You mentioned earlier you can't afford private school, but surely if you are used to paying £1600 a year- that works out to £19200 per annum Which is enough for private school and after school care. Assuming the private school you choose is £15k per annum?

But your childcare bill won’t double, because 1. the cost per head for 3 year olds is lower because the child: adult ratio reduces and 2. You get 30 hours free. Find out what nursery fees are for 3 year olds.

If you would dearly love another child, discuss this and make it work: you have enough income.

If your main concern is providing a sibling for your Dd, maybe revisit your thoughts in that.

@bubblebee40 though i guess maybe cos my mortgage is £1k so £500 lesser than yours. Its quite hard to find 3 bed flats in good areas in London for £550K actually. Also once you factor in the transport costs (even from zone 5), I found it made more sense to live centrally as interest rates are so low and the transport costs is better used to build up equity as at least when you retire, you can hopefully recoup some of the money if you cant afford to stay in London as a pensioner.

I think you can do it either way. Kids can share a room until they're older. Save up as much money as possible in the meantime and if you move, lower your mortgage payments to cover the cost of childcare for two babies.

You're in the same situation as me :D We are moving out of London (sob) to pay off our mortgage as quickly as possible and have cheaper nursery costs. We're moving away from our family too in order to achieve this. Once we've paid off our mortgage we'll have a lot more free reign as to where we'll buy next. Although we can WFH most of he time these days, we'll still need to be in the office about 2-3 times a week, which is 1h30m each way. It's quite the commitment but worth it.

Good luck! And have your beautiful second baby ♥️

I'm afraid we moved out of London just before no.2 arrived. Finance was a huge part of that - nursery fees for one child were higher than our mortgage! The other main driver was that we couldn't afford to move to a bigger house in our part of London and we didn't want to raise 2 children in a very small top floor flat.

Your child will get some free hours at nursery next year. Has your DH considered that?

£1.5k spare a month is fine, and it’s only for a few years. As for the cost of houses, unless you are particular on where you want to live, you could easily afford a home in zone 3-5, travel would be c. £200 a month, 30/50mins into central but tbh if you wanted to lower it you can take a bus ride to zone 2 and travel from there.

www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-76077401.html

www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-80776639.html

www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-78015295.html

www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-71236194.html

OP having two children is not the be all and end all but I personally think there’s more than finances being questioned for your husband to say no more children. Like you said a frank discussion is needed.
My neighbour was waiting for the perfect financial time to have her second. Her first starts school this September and work wise it’s better for her now, but they are having trouble conceiving . She’s 42.

yes, we probably do need to sit down and figure out what is at the heart of it. i do get his money thing....our mortgage is about 400k and currently we are spending way too much on childcare, but maybe its also something else