My friend's 2.5 toddler hit my 1.5 toddler on the head, and was told it was "OK, because it wasn't a hard ball"!!

[Woollymummy]

I want to know what you think....is it OK for me to give her some advice, or share my worries for her little boy. My feeling is he will get his head kicked in, or worse, one day because he hasn't been shown the correct boundaries. My little girl was shocked and scared, he thought it was funny, he practises hitting his sisiter regularly and as far as I can see is allowed to get away with it. I don't know what to do, I am scared for him and his mum, dad and sister, as he is obviously annoying them and yet nothing is being done about the situation.

What should I do? I want to email her, can't quite gather my courage to put a phone conversation that direction, and cannot talk to her when visiting as the kids would be there. Help!!

It was in his home, and his mum said his sister is used to it, which is why (I suppose) they were saying "Soft only" - it happens a lot. I am not a better parent than my friend, I admire and respect her, and love her to bits, which is why I don't want to hurt her, and I will probably say nothing. But those of you who rightly say I have no right to say anything, what do you think of the advice this toddler has been givien. Why is it OK to tell him that thing? Or do you think it is not OK? No one is talking about that! I want to know, when the time comes, what is right to tell a small person? I KNOW he is too young to have a concept of what other people feel, but he understands language, is very bright and eager to please, so why not try and tell him to behave in a non-violent way?

Why is saying "Be gentle/no hitting" not better than "Hit with object A but not object B" ?- I think the first message is better, and easier to understand (for me, also maybe for a baby). But that does not mean I think I am a better parent than my friend. I am talking about one behaviour and how to deal with it.

"2.5 is still just a baby really as well and he won't understand or "know what he was doing"

I disagree completely. My DD is 2 and believe me she knows exactly that is wrong to hit. When she does (rare) or attempts to she's got a very purposeful and defiant look on her face. because of that 9 out of ten times she stops her hand before hitting and if she does she knows she'll be told off.

there's no hitting at the childminder and certainly no hitting at home, whether is mum, daddy, the animals or other kids.

yes I am sure that the boy's sister is tougher that the OP's LO but this does not makes the OP a softie or naive.

Like the OP I would not be upset with the boy but with the parents for failing to discipline, or better teach him.

WM I'd just say 'no hitting' (like you said) in a stern manner and very serius look(that's the key)! [headmistress emoticon]
It's amazing how even strangers kids stop dead at times.

One boy (4) hit DD today at playground. He had been doing it to other kids for a good 1/2 without mother doing anything. the minute he touched her that's what I said. He stopped immediately. Obviously if he had continued I'd have gone to the mother.

I am very laid back but not re this. It is manners and social skills IMHO, the lack of which makes life miserable for child, parents and whoever is around.

WM- I've repeatedly explained as haschipkid and armadillo. It's not just about understanding what you're allowed/not allowed to do. DS3 knows he's not allowed to hit which is why when he hits us he tells us "Im a monkey" even though he knows it will lead to a minute on the bottom stair. It's also about impulse control. Some children are good at that, some aren't. It's not about parenting. ds2 is not impulsive at all - he is the opposite and thinks carefully before doing anything. DS3 is totally impulsive. Different children.

If you have a child who has a throwing thing going on (even like ds1- he knew he wasn;t allowed to throw heavy things over the stairs- despite being severely autistic he knew that- but because of his autism he has very limited impulse control) and that's being driven by impulse then telling them not to do it is not going to work. Finding them a suitable alternative might. That is why psychs etc sometimes suggest redirection as a strategy. The child gets taught to indulge in impulses without hurting anyone else- often far easier than preventing an impulse.

Right that's it, I'm not explaining it again.

Armadillo, I know a lot of people are disagreeing with me on this, it's OK, I have a thick skin when I haven't had a chance to shower for two days As OP, I guess I have the right to keep on about my main argument until someone understands what I mean!!

What I still haven't worked out is what you, Armadillo, or other posters feel about the concept of telling a child "It is OK to hit someone else over the head with an object" Justifying the hitting action by saying it is OK because it is a soft ball is to me a strange thing to do. What is their unltimate desire? To have a boy who does not hit? To have someone who hits people? My 1.5 year old DD already understands boundaries and is already pushing them. She knows that if she spreads her porridge on the table, and makes a mess, we get abit fed up. We have mentioned the word "Mess" on those occasions, and now, once she is full and starting to get bored with the idea of breakfast, she will start to spread a bit on the table, and say "Mess?", with a look on her face which shows she knows what we will say, and expects to be told off. If we tell her not to, she does it even more, but if we tell her ot to and then take the bowl away and pretend to eat it ourselves (or actually eat a bit if I am hungry!) she stops playing with it and finishes up. Kids know way more than you think, and to say a 2.5 year old doesn't know that hitting hurts is a bit odd. Wheteher or not he knows, should you tell him it is OK to hit at all. I honestly know more about the other end of the childhood years than this end, and I can tell some children have never ever been educated in the way you hope and imagine you can do for your kids.

boys have this thing called testosterone. It can make them agressive. Many parents choose to channel that aggression in certain ways rather than to try and get a very young child to try and suppress urges they can neither explain or control (which is why the impulse control thing is important).

Yes I think hitting with X (being soft object) is better than hitting with Y (hard object), if getting the hitting to stop full stop has not been successful.

I channel my ds's aggression - he has rough (though controlled) play with adults. He has objects (drums, toys, furniture) he can hit as hard as he likes without reprisal.

If another parent told him off for something, I would probably leave it alone. He has already been told off no need to keep going over it. If he hit another child (most likely accidentally) I wouldn't make a huge thing of it.

See with attention seeking behaviour (as that would most likely be) giving them negative attention is as bad as giving them positive attention. Giving a neutral, non-commital reaction or none at all is not feeding the attention.

Woolly - when my DCs are playing with other children and any of themn misbehave and I see it, I tell them of - doesn't matter whether if it's one of mine or not. By the same token I would expect minders of the others to do the same thing. But they are all the same age. 1.5 and 2.5 are a million miles apart...........

1.5 yo are very different to 2.5 yo when it comes to pushing boundaries. Have you never heard of the terrible twos?

yep the neutral thing is really important if something is being done for a reaction. Espcially for certain children. DS1 was really wise to that- knew exactly who would shout the house down and yelp and scream if he pinched them. Still does. Guess what? They get covered in bruises. (After I've spent 4 years explaining 'he likes people yelping if you comtinue to yelp he will pinch you more, if you completely ignore it and say very neutrally, 'hands down' he will stop' I tend to lose sympathy; and actually I get cross because it reignites the pinching impulse and off we go again having to try and get i under control.... grrr).

And terrible 3's is even worse

"Giving a neutral, non-commital reaction or none at all is not feeding the attention" fair enough but what about the child who has been hit. what does such indifference teach him/her?

I agree some children are more boisterous than others and you have to pick your battle and channel the energy. still when there are other children, person involved ignoring is not the answer.

(obviously we are talking about purposefully hitting, not accidentally or while in rough play.)

'terrible 3s'

oh god ds will be 3 in about 6 weeks

How does it impact on his sister? I guess she is now being pounded with soft balls all the time - is that a good environment to grow up in? At what point should we draw the line and say "This behaviour is NOT good, in any circumstance" and what is the implication for all our children if a lot of us stand back and say nothing to our friends? My friend is admirable for wanting to use less "No" than other people might, but surely saying, as her child pulls every object of a shelf while visiting us "Those are X's books" without even "Please don't do that...."or "We don't pull books off shelves...." spoken at all. It is the apparent unwillingness to actually forbid things that I find surprising!! I don't know how she copes, maybe she doesn't very well.

do you really think the 1.5 yo is going to remember the next day or even later that day what happened?

3's are much more a PITA than 2's

I think if a child's hurt they generally just want a cuddle don't they?

Wm I doubt she's having balls thrown at her all day long. If she's anything like ds3 it's the older 2 I have to protect from him (and have had to for a long time- he;s quite ahppy to boss 8 year old ds1 around).

Move stuff up higher so he can't reach if he always pulls the stuff off. My friend's dd used to draw everywhere. Rather than try and watch her (couldn;t anyway- she was autistic so would take herself off and we had 3 other children between us to watch) I used to hide pens before she visited and told dh to lock up his stuff (and not to moan if he didn't and it was drawn on). Or ban the kids from certain rooms.

If that's too much hassle just don't see them until he's older.

Woolly - IMHO you are either doing a paper on this, or else need to chill seriously.

mabye she has a mcuh better idea of what is acceptable behaviour in a 2.5yo than you do.

And children get hyped up around visitors and behave worse. Unless you have cctv cameras installed in her house you will have little idea of how she parents 24/7 or what his behaviour is like then.

A child that is constantly told off will exhibit bad behaviour as they are rewarded by attention (negative attention being seen by them as still being attention).

Pick your battles is a very important thing (imo) to remember when you are dealing with children.

If his sister is younger she will no doubt exact her revenge when she gets to the same age. If she is older, then doubtless she did the same thing to him.

What you don't seem to grasp is that yes, most of the posters see his behaviour as perfectly normal for his age, and his parents way of dealing with it as perfectly acceptable.

It was definitely not rough play, it was testing out the theory he had just been taught by his dad right before we walked in the door.

And by the way, both males and females have both testosterone and oestrogen, just different amounts of each. Usually.

I want to stay friends, keep in contact,so I guess hanging around them more will help me see how she deals with him over a longer time and will help me learn to be with him as well without getting peturbed. I have a lot to learn, though I really do think if kids are taught that behaviour X to person Y means no playing with person Y for a while, they will learn quicker, than if they are told behaviour X is ok as long as it looks as if it isn't hurting as much as it was!

Remember, I was there to whisk away my DD when it happened. Is his sister always able to escape him? Is he ever removed when it happens? Your responses make me feel I will never know because I am not allowed to ask, or mention it.

she is the same age.

oh this is a wind up. Good one!

Woolly - IMHO you are either doing a paper on this, or else need to chill seriously.

I don't see personally why you need to know how his sister copes with it. I'm guessing his mother hasn't come crying and beating her chest to you demanding your amazing parenting knowledge, so she in all probability feels either

a) she's coping fine and there is no problem (and most posters on this thread would agree with her)

b) she's not coping, but you're not the person to go to for advice.

And yes I know both males and females have testosterone, I also know boys get testosterone surges every few years and that high levels of testosterone can cause aggression.

You are in for a great time when your dd starts really testing those boundaries.

ok, on a roll here...at what age of friend's child would you say it is OK to give advice regarding possible long-term consequences? If one of your friends' sons was a violent 10 year-old or older, what would you do then? Or would you leave it? Is there ever a time when it is ok to ask your friends why they do something/don't do something? If no-one ever asks, do we not sometimes end up with parents who have suffered without advice for years and then have a "crazy" kid who is socially excluded, treated as odd at school, avoided etc or perhaps worse, gets a massive boost to their bad behaviour when they get to secondary school and find lots of new pals who also like pushing the boundaries.

I am not talking here just as a naive new mum, I am also talking as someone who has to try and manage unruly, aggressive adolescents, and who is aware of different ways of parenting.

gess, they are twins. it is not a wind up.

the mum is aware of how they are both developing, and has mentioned some things to me regarding the girl's development. I presume domestic stresses of any kind can cause restrictions in growth etc

WVS - I have no-one to talk to at home at the moment, so brain keeps working while it should be sleeping. I guess I should go to bed now anyway, at least Pippi seems to understand what I mean

Thanks for all your responses, maybe one day I will start another thread. It wasn't too painful