My friend's 2.5 toddler hit my 1.5 toddler on the head, and was told it was "OK, because it wasn't a hard ball"!!

[Woollymummy]

I want to know what you think....is it OK for me to give her some advice, or share my worries for her little boy. My feeling is he will get his head kicked in, or worse, one day because he hasn't been shown the correct boundaries. My little girl was shocked and scared, he thought it was funny, he practises hitting his sisiter regularly and as far as I can see is allowed to get away with it. I don't know what to do, I am scared for him and his mum, dad and sister, as he is obviously annoying them and yet nothing is being done about the situation.

What should I do? I want to email her, can't quite gather my courage to put a phone conversation that direction, and cannot talk to her when visiting as the kids would be there. Help!!

I totally agree that the boy is an unformed person at the moment, and that no-one can tell what he will or will not become in the future. His mum however is an adult, is probably going to be fairly similar now to the way she will be in 10 years time, and therefore her parenting may be also. Is it really a totally taboo subject to talk with her about? What happens if no-one ever explains to her that sometimes just treating children the way you wish them to be doesn't always work? A clear boundary beyond which you do not you child to go is always good to have, even if only in theory. I am not sure she has the confidence to cope with the repercussions if she starts telling him no. He is a very lovely boy, but he is using this behaviour to get attention, and it is working.

Has anyone ever tried to talk to a friend about this sort of thing? Was it a disaster? Is that why you are saying don't do it? Or has no-one tried?

at 2.5 they have no impulse control. My ds at 2.5 to age 4 was a blardy little bruiser. He was my first and I gave him quite a hard time because I was worried he would turn into a thug or a disaffected teenager!!!!!

I now have a 2.5 year old dd and I realise just what a baby he was.

Oh and he is no longer violent.

Just remember "they all get you in the end"-imagine how you would feel if one of your friends started to address you about your parenting in relation to a bahavioural problem that you will almost certainly face along the way

HOw would you feel if someone came and criticised your parenting? Someone who felt you were going about things completely the wrong way? Cos I doubt many people out there would be pleased to receive that kinda criticism.

OTher people raise their children in different ways to your own. They raise them in accordance to what they feel is best.

I would always say unless you are worried enough about the child to inform someone like social services or the parent confides in you about problems or asks for advice, then leave well alone - it is not your place to tell them what is right and what is wrong.

Who knows they may have as many criticisms about your parenting as you have about theirs.

Armadillo, the idea of not taking DD with me when I visit my friend made me chuckle...I don't think I can justify arranging childcare just so I can go and see my frinds!!! I did remove my daughter straight away, just to the next room, and there was no repetition of the behaviour until just as we were leaving, about 1 1/2 hours later.

He was actually very sweet, every time I praised his sister for doing something nice with my DD, he copied and so I had lots of chances to see he was and can be really well behaved, it is just the hitting thing has been going on for months and months, and I don't believe can be addressed by saying "Yes, it is totally OK to hit your friends with this object, but not that object" - I think he may have even been told that it is OK to hit adults with hard balls, but not his sister.

Just to add Woollymummy-I addressed my ds's hitting issues every time and he still did it over and over again-he was that sort of toddler-as I said it stopped when he developed some self-control and a better understanding of social nicities. The bahaviour you describe in this little boy is not uncommon

Of course a 2.5 year old has no way of controlling their urges, I understand that bit!! It is the advice from the parents that I question - they are telling their son something which seems odd to me. Do you think it is OK to tell your child, "Yes, you can hit other peoples' children and your sister, just as long as it is with this particular object". Surely this is a confusing message for him, and what he needs is a way of understanding that somethings you CANNOT do without consequences. He doesn't get time-out or anything like it as far as I can see.

It isn't up to you whether you believe it is the right way to deal with that behaviour or not in relation to someone else's child.

Going through hitting phase for months is quite normal at that age. They still have no impulse control, and need to be told the same thing again and again. Children's memories at 2.5 are still very short and their attention spans are even shorter.

If you have a real problem with it don't go and see them. If you can bear to let your friends parent their own child in a way they see fit then carry on.

oh this is a wind up.

It's entirely normal behaviour for a 2.5 year old and of course he doesn't know it hurts. He's 2.5- without fully developed theory of mind which is needed before he can put himself in someone else's shoes. Hitting can go on for months at that age- just pray to god none of your kids get into biting at that age because then you're really ostracised (thank goodness none of mine did).

If someone with one 1.5 year old tried to tell me how to parent my 8, 5 or 2.5 year old I would ring a friend to snigger.

Gess speaks much sense, as usual.

When does the ability to understand that they've hurt others develop? (Out of interest)
DS is starting to understand, I think, but you never know - he could just be playing up to my admonishment.

I would stay well and truly out of it. You will just get your friend's back up.

I think time out for rough play at 2.5 is a little ott in my view

woollymummy when ds1 was throwing very heavy objects over the stairs repeatedly (it was his thing- he likes the way they smashed into a million pieces) one strategy that was suggested to us was that everytime he went for it we redirected him to cushions or soft balls (he is severely autistic, so explanations were not going to work). We were told that it was a strategy that could have some sucess- a pile of 'safe' things to throw. IMO it is an incredibly difficult strategy to get right because you have to try and redirect BEFORE they throw- but ds1's understandsing would have been less than a 2.5 year old at the time, so a 2.5 might be able to understand that eventually without having to worry about stopping the throwing before it happened. ds3 probably would, although he might not always obey it- repeated enough times the message would sink in.

This strategy was suggested by a clinical psychologist- maybe it is something they're using, maybe its not. Or maybe they just don't intervene so quickly because he's a 2nd child. Who knows. If it a strategy they are using then its certainly a valid one according to the professionals.

sekator-it is not just the abiltity to understand about hurting others that is required-it is the devlopment of impulse control and the development of empathy that are really necessary before a child truly moderates its behaviour.

Wooly - why do you think you are a better parent than your friend?
Parenting challenges differ, depending on the age of your child. When your child is 2.5 maybe you will understand their position a bit more.

agree chipkid- we only really give ds3 (age 2.5) a very short time out if he repeatedly, on purpose hits someone (usually whilst saying 'I'm not naughty I'm a monkey, me hitting daddy' ). There's no point giving a child time out unless they understand what they've done to 'earn' it- and rough play almost certainly isn't perceived as rough by them. I do psend a lot of time saying 'play nicely' though!

my favourite phrase was "be gentle NO BE GENTLE"

Aha, so when would you switch from telling them "Soft balls are OK to hit people with" again and again, and swap to something more socially acceptable like" Hitting other people hurts them and is not nice"? If it has to be repeated endlessly, perhaps it is better to start with the latter message, rather than the former? Obviously I am a novice and am trying to work out what I am going to have to face in the next couple of years.

As far as dumping my friends just because they don't agree with my parenting styles/vice versa, that is a very odd thing to do. I find parenting the most isolated period of my life so far, DH away working a lot, and so I haven't enough spare friends to waste but am keen to be able to get on well with the ones I have, and so will humbly say nothing if that is what Mumsnet decrees, but if anyone can advise on what they think about that ODD mixed message, do please tell me. Even if I say nothing to her about it. am I right in thinking it is an odd thing to teach your toddler? Or is it in fact sensible? I am open to criticism myself. I got cross with my DD today because she spat out healthy yoghurt and apple-sauce, and then had to say sorry because it was all because I was tired and irritated about other things. I know my own parenting needs advice, I am just curious about this one, as it did have an impact on my daughter('s head).

Impulse control can take ages to develop and varies wildly imo. Think its actually one of the hardest things to deal with.

I know some adults who still struggle to master it!

Another thing to bear in mind is that how he acts with other children may not be how he acts at home.

There are a few friends that I see who have children and my DS just has to see them for any sense to go out the window. He starts running around like a wild thing which he wouldn't do at home (just because he is really excited to see them). Luckily they are bigger than him so its not really a problem (he is 2.5).

And I can tell him not to hit until the cows come home but he has a 3 second attention span (took us about 6 months to get over his biting phase)

surely gess has already explained - it is a displacement activity. Replacing somehting that would be dangerous/incrediably painful with something less so

You don't agree with what they are doing, fair enough - you have made that point in practically every post. But the majority of the rest of the posters do not agree with you. No matter how many times you restate it the likelihood is that they will still not agree with you.

You want to carry on seeing your friends - then get over your issue of how they parent.

pmsl chipkid we get 'be gentle' a lot as well. And 'stop fighting you two. ok STOP IT now have a cuddle'

I think that teaching that its OK to throw some things and not others is valid yes. If you have a child who rerally won't stop throwing (such as ds1 chucking heavy stuff over the stairs, or perhaps this little boy) then it can be the strategy with the most potential for success. I think its easier if you have an 'allowed' box- i.e. you can throw these and nothing else, rather than a soft/hard thing going on.

I do teach my children to avoid each other's heads when playing. But I do have to say it repeatedly.

that was at the fact that it has already been explained - not at the idea of displacement.

Wooly, you have a few choices here:

1. Do nothing. Continue as you are. Friend's DC may continue to hit yours, but you will now be more attentive. You may not see it as your responsibility, but hey, we're parents now....
2. No longer let your DC play with hers, with a possible impact on your friendship
3. Have a word with your friend, with a possible impact on your friendship

Wooly - it also depends how close you are to your friend. One of my friends has kids around the same age as my DS. When we visit each other we generally let them be and take it in turns to separate/tell off as necessary. She will tell off my DS if necessary and I can tell off hers - but we have that sort of friendship.

(Having said that I wouldn't leave a 1.5 and 2.5 alone)