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Original poster

In tears with my 5yo's back chat

63 replies

Di11y · 02/04/2019 20:08

so DD was 5 in March, and her rudeness and back chat has got worse and worse over the last 6 months or so.

lots is low level, rude "no!" when I ask her to do something, or stupid mummy, shut up! etc or contradicting me. also a lot of lying to avoid getting into trouble (often about her little sister)

I usually tell her the rudeness isn't acceptable and I don't want to be around her when she's not talking in a kind and loving way and walk away, barring her from the room I'm in if necessary for a few mins and until i get an apology. not always possible if we're in the car or rushing to get out the house.

DH thinks we should be stricter and be putting her on the naughty step every time, I appreciate we can't let her get away with it but I'm worried this will lead to a power struggle and erode our relationship.

advice please!!

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Sexnotgender · 02/04/2019 20:10

There needs to be consequences, immediate understandable consequences.

Wishy washy ‘you’re not talking in a kind way’ is pointless.

Calzone · 02/04/2019 20:13

She’s only 5 and testing the boundaries of how far she can go......

Ask her why she’s saying no to you and give good reasons why you have asked her to do something.

Give clear warnings about what will happen if she continues to defy you and then 3 strikes and she’s on the naughty step with no tv/tablet/whatever she likes.

But massively over praise when she’s amazing and cooperative.

dementedma · 02/04/2019 20:14

be stricter. if you don't nip this in the bud now, God help you when DD is a mouthy, out of control teenager

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Original poster
Di11y · 02/04/2019 20:41

I agree about nipping it in the bud. just worried that basically having a "I'm the boss of you, do as I say" attitude will raise the stakes and make everything a power struggle.

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Caraboss · 02/04/2019 20:49

It can be difficult, but it's best to stay calm and show that you're in control. If you react it can become a power struggle. A (seemingly) calm demeanour and an air of "this isn't affecting me" is probably your best chance of showing her that this behaviour isn't working. So whatever you're saying - "no we're not doing that", "I already said no", "stop doing that", "if you don't stop now, we're not going to have time for..." do it in a calm voice. Little children can feel a bit scared by their big, angry emotions. If you can model calm behaviour when you're annoyed with her, she'll notice that.

SweetAsSpice · 02/04/2019 20:51

Dramatic body language can work here too. Stop dead, shocked look on your face, raise eyebrows before a commanding 'excuse me?'

'That's 1...' I go up to 3 then immediate consequence. Choices too, 'if you continue with (for example being rude)...then....(you will not have toy/book/etc) will happen.' Sincere praise when making the right choice.

Read books about feelings and words that can hurt too, get her to talk about how it makes character/mummy feel when someone is rude to them.

Just some ideas, I have a strong willed 3 year old and don't get it right most of the time so watching with interest too.

SweetAsSpice · 02/04/2019 20:53

Also as Caraboss has said, not being bothered
/tactical ignoring can help too.

Fridasrage · 02/04/2019 20:59

Disagree with the comments. Look past the behaviour to the need. She’s trying to explore social consequences, developmentally normal thing to do. She needs to know you’ll be there for her - if you’re walking out of the room you’re showing her that you’ll leave her if she isn’t ‘good’. It’s a great way to train dogs but I’m not sure whether it’s a great strategy for raising humans.

Explain she’s being unkind, and work out what frustration she’s actually trying to express - upset about the transition from playing to having a bath, not liking having to share with sister etc - then give her the words to express that and redirect to better ways of expressing.

Creatureofthenight · 02/04/2019 21:09

I agree with Frida. Leaving small children to deal with big emotions or difficulties on their own by putting them on a step or shutting them out doesn’t seem a great idea to me. Of course pull her up on unkind words/behaviour but see if you can work through what’s behind it.

fleshmarketclose · 02/04/2019 21:14

At that age I used to say " Excuse me, did you mean to be rude just then or did you forget your good manners?" which gave them a chance to stop and think about what they had said and offer an apology.

Danascully2 · 02/04/2019 21:18

Watching with interest...

Closetlibrarian · 02/04/2019 21:22

We went through this big time with DD, I feel she's coming out of it now at 6. We just did lots of calling her on it when it happened - lots of 'don't be rude', etc. Often she would get sent to her room/ treats taken away if she was really rude.

I also found that after a while, switching from reprimanding her to instead saying that she was a lovely polite girl and that this rude behaviour wasn't what she was really like. Helped get us out of what was beginning to feel like a vicious cycle of labelling her as rude and thus she behaved rudely and to alleviate what was beginning to feel like a constantly negative attitude (from her, from us to her, etc). Lots of things like rewarding good behaviour, really going out of our way to comment on when she'd been lovely, thoughtful, etc, helped too.
Now I find that a quick 'excuse me' (in a certain tone of voice) cuts short any rudeness in its tracks.

Good luck. It's a tough time and I do agree with you about the not wanting to get into a battle of wills thing, but I think she also needs to learn that some behaviour is unacceptable.

WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 02/04/2019 21:24

It’s a phase and it’ll pass, I really recommend How to Talk so Kids Listen and Listen So Kids Talk for techniques to deal with this kind of thing. She’s just coming to the end of her second term at school, she’s probably very tired. I wouldn’t allow words like stupid or shut up but I would just be verbally firm about it.

I can’t stand the ‘nip this in the bud’ attitude. That’s just not bothering to find out what the actual issue is.

Original poster
Di11y · 02/04/2019 21:28

I've been trying to get underneath the behaviour, this has been a very trying time for our family and I can understand why she's acting out but it's been getting worse. It still needs to stop.

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Original poster
Di11y · 02/04/2019 21:30

I've been trying to make how to talk... my bible for about the last year, DH doesn't agree as it doesn't seem to be working

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WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 02/04/2019 21:31

yes, it like I said, itls nearly the end of term, only her second term, she’s bound to be exhausted, so that on top of whatever the trying issue has been - of course she’s acting out. You’ve only got 3 days till the end of term, just get through this week and then you can all breathe.

WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 02/04/2019 21:33

Can I make a suggestion which might out me? Me and a few other mums did How to Talk as a reading group book, reading a chapter once a week, and we met up every week and would compare notes in how we’d managed to implement the previous chapter.

RoseMartha · 02/04/2019 21:34

Make more of the good behaviour with praise and maybe a sticker. The more you make of the bad behaviour the more she will do it.
Try and ignore what you can. Maybe try and just say one short thing about the rude back chat.
Focus on the good language and encourage her every time she manages that.

EvaHarknessRose · 02/04/2019 21:37

Put it this way, would you rather have the power struggle age 5 or 15? If things have been unsettled, she needs to know who is in charge to feel safe. Why not do it dh’s way, but at the same time dial up the positive times together too. Love and boundaries. Give her control but over positive things like what book mummy reads her at bedtime or which play park daddy takes her to. Give her some little jobs and responsibilities and teach her to do them with your assistance. Then you can praise her up.

SosigDog · 02/04/2019 21:38

having a "I'm the boss of you, do as I say" attitude will raise the stakes
She’s a child. Of course you need to establish that you’re the parent and she has to respect you and behave appropriately. Effectively you are the boss and she needs to understand that.

WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 02/04/2019 21:39

Oh, for heaven’s sake, what on Earth has this situation at aged 5 got to do with what she may or may not be like at 15?

itsinchicago · 02/04/2019 21:40

To be honest, she needs to know that you are the boss, and that you will not stand for any nonsense.

mathanxiety · 02/04/2019 21:40

It is a maddening phase. Five year old boys have their issues too...

I agree with Frida. Otoh, I agree with the poster who used the phrase "Did you mean to be rude?"

I think a lot of it boils down to developing a feel for what is socially acceptable in terms of language and inflection. Five year olds hear older children and adults talking, many watch TV and movies and YouTube and while some may be able to follow the action, nuance goes right over their heads, and they use whatever they pick up completely unfiltered as to emotional impact.

A lot of it is also what Frida says - inability to put the right word on an emotion.

So five year old girls need tools, not timeouts. They need to be encouraged to label feelings, and this goes for all circumstances. You should, for instance, know how she feels about her school uniform and her teacher and her homework as well as frustration about sharing, etc.

They also need to be taught the right phrase to use instead of the rude one. You can model this and also take her aside when she shoots from the lip and teach her a better way of expressing herself .

However, if there is any particular programme or movie that she watches that is pitched at older children or adults, any show where she seems to be picking up a sassy attitude or phrases, don't let her watch it. Parroting in this way at five shows she is not able to process the content.

kayakingmum · 02/04/2019 21:44

Is there a pattern? The reason I ask is because my almost 2 year old was a bit naughty yesterday, then got in a real state - threw her nice jigsaw puzzle on the floor and then super angry that she couldn't have another episode of Peppa pig.
The main cause of her behaviour seem to me to be tiredness and feeling poorly in the end.

Perhaps your daughter has reasons for behaving as she does, though I'm not sure what they are.

JassyRadlett · 02/04/2019 21:45

We had similar with my eldest, who was an easy toddler and preschooler but awful aged 5-6.

The thing is - it’s already a power struggle of a kind. You’re constantly having to assert your authority, she’s constantly testing it.

With my eldest, we chose two or three things at a time to be incredibly strict about; the consequence were things he really cared about, and he had a maximum of one warning before the consequence.