In tears with my 5yo's back chat

[Di11y]

so DD was 5 in March, and her rudeness and back chat has got worse and worse over the last 6 months or so.

lots is low level, rude "no!" when I ask her to do something, or stupid mummy, shut up! etc or contradicting me. also a lot of lying to avoid getting into trouble (often about her little sister)

I usually tell her the rudeness isn't acceptable and I don't want to be around her when she's not talking in a kind and loving way and walk away, barring her from the room I'm in if necessary for a few mins and until i get an apology. not always possible if we're in the car or rushing to get out the house.

DH thinks we should be stricter and be putting her on the naughty step every time, I appreciate we can't let her get away with it but I'm worried this will lead to a power struggle and erode our relationship.

advice please!!

You already are in a battle of wills. Some times changing the wording . Go and .... before, sometimes if you get a no repeat in a lower tone .

If you are afraid of s battle of wills at this age then it will only get worse . That said I also think it has to be built in a time when they do have control . Do you want to play a game ? Go and pick one . Do you want to pick the bedtime story.

Myself and my mother had this power struggle at 5 and then again at 15. And at about 100 points in between. Winning it at 5 is no guarantee of lifelong success. Everything escalated into a huge row. I was obviously a difficult child but she never helped to diffuse the situation and try to apply any understanding, not that I could see anyway. We have a fairly awkward relationship now and I'm terrified of the same thing happening to my daughter.

You should not be upset about this, nor in tears. This is not anything personal towards you. Assuming there are no behavioural or learning difficulties, and that there is not a back history causing this, then it can be put down to nothing more than a child pushing boundaries. Children push boundaries all the time, it's totally normal. And you can't get upset every time they get this way. Your job as a parent is to stay calm, and deal with it appropriately.

When my daughter was that age, if she acted up, I had to do nothing but point out of the room, and say 'ROOM' in loud and angry tones with a cross face, and she'd be gone like a shot. And I'd leave her there for a while (no electronic devices), then either she'd come & apologise, or I'd go to her and see if she was ready to apologise, then I'd explain what I wasn't happy about, what I'd rather see her do, then we'd have a hug, and move on.

There is no power struggle to be had, she is a 5 year old child, you are an adult parent. It's that simple.

This has all worked very well with my daughter, she is now a young teenager, and all her teachers love her - say that her behaviour is exceptional. She is a delight. That isn't to say we don't get teenage strops and tantrums and moans - it's totally normal. I try to discuss things with her now, even more now she's older, but there are times when the answer is just plain no, or she needs to be brought up short.

We have a great relationship too. We talk a lot, discuss things. She's a person I admire very much. She's funny, kind, clever.

I have spent much of my adult life training animals - and quite honestly, it's not so different from training young children - the principles are pretty much the same. Quiet, kind, consistent - clear boundaries & expected ways of behaving.

My 7yr old is like this. Unfortunately I think it’s the other girls at school, it’s how they speak to each other. I’m hoping the holidays will help to get behaviour back on track.

I agree that time out/punishment is not the solution.

First question I’d ask is where she’s hearing people speak like this. From experience they do hear it somewhere- nursery, tv, home... ask her why she says it- what’s the bet she’ll say something like but jimmy at nursery says it..! Then it’s the conversation about jimmy being rude and just because he says it doesn’t mean it’s a nice thing.

Be hyper aware of modelling polite speech at home. Point it out every time she’s rude. It’ll pass.

@Greenlegobox

I'm terrified of the same thing happening to my daughter.

Unsolicited recommendation for addressing this specific dynamic (maybe helpful for others as well) in case you haven’t come across this already

There’s a book by psychotherapist Philippa Perry called “The book you wish your parents had read (and your children will be glad you did)”. The title is terrible, the cover is terrible, but the book is SO good. A lot of what the book deals with is how not to project the less than ideal bits of parenting that you received as a child forward to your children, and how to develop a great relationship with your kiddo.

i have a slight feeling she went like this before Christmas holidays too now people mention it...

I have a terrible relationship with my stepmum (my mum died and my dad remarried when I was 13) who was hugely "do what I say and don't dare question me", I behaved but there was no love lost.

I'll give you full disclosure (apologies if anyone considers this a drip feed, and if you recognise me IRL, give me a hug!)

DH has been off work for 5 months after having a breakdown in October and back to work last week on phased return. v disruptive for the kids and me, DH often not participating in family life.

he finds being round the girls (dd2 is 18mo) v stressful, and finds dd1's behaviour and disrespect v triggering. he doesn't seem to have the capacity at the moment to speak to her gently if she's not doing what he's asked, it's a curt order straight away and she interprets this as shouting even though he's not.

Kids want their world to feel stable and firm boundaries help them feel safe. Letting a 5 year old feel like they have equal power to their parent is frightening for them - they literally don't have the brain capacity to cope.
I agree with your husband.

Di what first stick out to me was that you said you sometimes banned her from being in the room your in, that in it’s self is counter productive.

After your update I it’s quite clear to see you is actions up for your attention - any kind!

I’d love bomb her. I’d keep her really close and lovingly touch her all day. From the moment she gets up till she goes bed. I’d make special quiet time just for her, where you talk about anything and every thing. Find projects to look at together on line. Really engage with her.

Obviously your Dh illness has effected the family and her.

You don’t always have to punish kids to get your point across but I think you can easily pull this back.

How many times a day do you hug, kiss her, touch her hair? It really does matter

Also, I would treat this as habit training. Like if you wanted her to build the habit of brushing her teeth every day.

It would help if your dh was on the same page. I'm sorry it's been a tough time lately. It might help him if he feels there's a plan you're both happy with?

You need to scaffold for success (so, maybe a sticker chart - something to both reward and visual cue). You lay out the expectations and consequences up front. You have a heart to heart with ger about the why up front. And then you are 100% consistent in upholding the expectations. So, maybe 2 kind reminders before consequences enacted. Also, lots of positive distractions and praise, so spend time doing nice things together and thanking her for making the activity pleasant with her good attitude.

And tone of voice can cause different reactions. So if your Dh expects immediate results and your five year old doesn’t jump to it and DH is very curt - it’s took the situation to a level it might not have needed to get to.

He might be unwell and struggle with the kids but he needs to remember this just isn’t about him. They are really small children.

Keep the boundaries tight to help her feel secure. Of course she pushes her luck she’s testing those boundaries, don’t call rudeness and disobedience “low level”. Minimising that kind of behaviour just encourages it.
Do address it very firmly every time. But do also explain why, and tell her what kind of behaviour you actually expect. Also praise every bit of positive behaviour. And give loads of affection too.

I am very strict with my daughter. I pull her up on rudeness every single time. I hate doing it, but she is exceptionally headstrong and lacks empathy so I have to be consistent. We still adore each other, as far as she is concerned I am her best friend and she tells me she loves me or I'm beautiful or I'm the best mummy at least half a dozen times a day. Don't worry about your relationship part of being a parent is setting clear boundaries it results in secure kids.

ok, she's not had as much one on one attention as I'd like lately as I've been shouldering most of the parenting, incl my 18mo. we do nice things when dd2 is napping at the weekend and we chat for about 20 mins after bedtime stories every night which is my fave part of the day ("what did you do when I wasn't with you?")

we've been getting by and the cracks are showing in all of us.

She doesn't watch you tube, only non cebeebies tv is something called mia and me about unicorns, and my little pony.

im totally up for more quality time, but what do I do in the moment when she's being so rude?

Raising girls by Steve Biddulph is a great book. Totally changes your perception on things.

#mumunderthemoon your dd sounds like mine. I really worry about her lack of empathy, and she's always been known as strong willed. she's hugely competitive about all things (going up the stairs first, having the most of anything)

She's still prone to dissolving into tears at the slightest thing (being offered her usual for breakfast but she wants something else which is also fine).

Start tomorow as a new day.

Give her a cuddle when she wakes up and aim to touch or cuddle her just in passing eight or more times. It keeps that connection close.

Pick something she is interested in, my five year old loves space to we google lots about planets and kids YouTube vids on it.

Have a chat with your Dh about holding his tongue just while you try something new. Both of you try this.

Talk about all the good things she has done that day.

Pick your battles massively. Try and keep to a routine and prepare her for what’s coming up.

Eg.. ‘in five mins where going to clear the toys away, who’s going to be the most helpful??

It’s really hard work. I have a 23 year old, 5 & 2. Sometimes I fuck up but I always try to manage my emotions and how I deal with them better. How do you think it would look through your kids eyes when your shouting or banning her from the room. How do you think she would be feeling when she has lost control of her own emotions?

Bloody nightmare kids!

@FamilyReferee

When my daughter was that age, if she acted up, I had to do nothing but point out of the room, and say 'ROOM' in loud and angry tones with a cross face, and she'd be gone like a shot. And I'd leave her there for a while (no electronic devices), then either she'd come & apologise, or I'd go to her and see if she was ready to apologise, then I'd explain what I wasn't happy about, what I'd rather see her do, then we'd have a hug, and move on.

This is interesting that you make it work. Mine just refuse to go to their rooms.
They do it at their dads though fear of his at times angry dominate behaviour.

Maybe I'm seen as the soft touch....

That was supposed to be a quote... first paragraph

@Amongstthetallgrass great post

Your update explains everything.

Is your DH under the care of a medical professional?
Can you please, please try to talk to this person if at all possible, and try to get through to him/her how your DH is treating your DD? Can you ask this person to explore with your DH how he is displacing anxiety or anger or shame or other feelings at home?

Because this is the cause of the issues.
DD can't understand what happened to her dad. She can't understand the curt speech and she is frightened that she has failed in some way, that she is no longer special or even acceptable, frightened of the coldness. This is why she wants to be the fastest up the stairs and to win races and other competitions she has set up in her head. She wants to feel she is special and loved - surely the best and fastest would be acceptable? Maybe the feeling of triumph when she wins helps mitigate the fears she has as your family struggles with your DH's illness?

No amount of explaining what happened to daddy will help here. All she knew of the world up to now has been changed and she is bewildered. Five year olds are not yet able to zoom out and see the big picture, nor can they understand any of it rationally, but they feel everything.

Your DH has to get help in dealing with the little details of family life.

Please stop separating yourself from her when she acts out. This is compounding the problem and increasing her sense of being rejected, unacceptable and maybe even unlovable.

Also, please end the focus on 'rude' speech. You yourself are under a lot of stress and it is understandable that her words and attitude are pressing buttons. But you have to yet again be the adult here - the superhuman adult in many ways - and accept that this issue has a wider context that must be addressed. Rudeness is the symptom, not the disease. Children pick up and respond to every single undercurrent in a family. Your DD is the bellwether, the canary in the mine.

I do not know what your finances are like, and maybe this would be out of reach, but I strongly urge you to investigate play therapy for DD to get to the bottom of her distress and to try to guide her through this horrible time. Could your GP put you on a fast track to an appointment with a play therapist? Could you make a payment arrangement with a play therapist where you would pay an affordable amount each month until the total bill is paid off?

Everything mathanxiety said.

also, I wouldn't be surprised if some of your own strong reaction is to do with the enormous stress you must be feeling after your dh's breakdown

but do please listen to what math said and make sure all that stress, your dh's and yours, doesn't end up on the shoulders on one small child

afraid superhuman is the way to go

a sense of humour is also enormously helpful; try to see the funny side in whatever happens

and amongsttallgrass makes really helpful practical suggestions

it does make things easier once they have learnt to trust that you really are big and strong enough to cope with them whatever comes

My approach to dealing with the behaviour you describe was very much along the lines of what FamilyReferee has set out. They could come out of their rooms once they were ready to apologise and behave themselves, and we would discuss what happened.

I think too though that your most recent update is very telling and mathanxiety's response there is good. The two can be combined, I think, or run concurrently.

Right, well, you're update explains exactly why your DD is behaving like this (though they can do this with no reason as well!).

math has some very good advice there.

My 3yo is like this thanks to her grandparents and nursery peers! Always says ‘no mummy, shush’ when she doesn’t want to listen. It’s usually when she’s tired after nursery. At the weekend she’s a completely different child! I second a PP that it could be tiredness or even a vitamin/iron deficiency making her feel muggy. You’re not alone OP, I hope it gets better for you