Missing Children

[Scared]

I don't know about anyone else, but the latest story of the two missing girls just terrifies me. I don't want to turn into one of these mothers who won't let their child out of their sight, but think that it is a distinct possibility.

I tend to look at the parents of children who go missing and wonder how they let it happen, but I know that it wasn't their fault really. It's just the unfairness of life that allows a child to wander off when the parent looks away for a second.

I watched a programme on James Bulger, and it broke my heart. I still cry when I see news articles about the killers being released. It scares me for my ds. I know I would never get over it if anything ever happened to him. I don't think that I would want to carry on living if it did.

As a child I went through a stage where I was really obsessed with strangers, because we had a 'funny' man (weird euphamism) outside our school gates offering money to girls. I wouldn't go anywhere on my own, and it reached a stage where my mum despaired about me. I still worry about being out on my own in certain situations.

Anyway, I guess that I am asking how people on this site have ensured the safety of their children, without making them scared of everyone in the town!

I don't like children dressed as mini-adults (for all sorts of reasons, not just sexual ones) but it's not a new phenomenon - look at old paintings. Children wore hoop skirts, the lot. Also, as I said further down, Victorian London was packed full of child prostitutes, none of whom wore crop tops or miniskirts. The truth is, paedophiles get off on children - full stop. Not children dressed in a certain way, just children. As I understand it, they like the very childishness and vulnerability of them, and the less they look like children the less they like them. Hell, they like babies in nappies (which makes me feel sick as I type). Holly and Jessica were wearing huge baggy football shirts, baggy trousers and no makeup yet they weren't safe. I just don't see any relevance of clothing to this discussion. I don't think it is our 'responsibility' to make sure our children are unalluring, I think the responsibility lies only with paedophiles, murderers and abusers of children, and to say anything else, IMO, plays right into their hands. They are delighted when we say it is our fault. It isn't.It's theirs. This reminds me of the idea that it is women's fault when they get raped because of the clothes they wear. That poor 17-year-old girl who killed herself because of her courtroom ordeal after she was raped was constantly asked to show the court the black thong knickers she was wearing when she was attacked. The humiliation literally killed her, yet the shape, size, colour whatever of her knickers had nothing to do with the rape. As I say, I don't like adult clothes on children, but let's not say anything that could be used as excuses by those who harm children (though I completely understand that is not in any way your intention Rhubarb).

I agree entirely, Aloha (also agree with you, Rhubarb - I especially hate little platform shoes for 7 year olds).

My problem with the media is that the constant attention has made Britain a country obsessed. You get peadophiles in every country, and child murders (only example I can think of is that English girl raped and murdered by a Spaniard in France - should read the Spanish press more). However in Briatin now many innocent male teachers are hounded out of their jobs, many registered (and therefore monitored) peadophiles are mobbed out of their homes so they cannot be monitored any more, men are scared to help lost children and many children cannot play outside. To top the lot, last year the house of a peadiatrician was attacked. What have we become?

I read a study (can't remember the refernce) where essentially they showed a photo of a man with a child on his knee to people of various nationalities. Almost all of the Europeans said the photo was of a loving father. A scary number (I can't remember, but a substantial percentage) of Brits said the man was obviously a peadophile.

I guess what I'm saying is, that while hideous crimes like this one happen occasionally, the greater damage to society is done by the fear of these crimes. I hope the town of Soham and the families can eventually come to terms with these events, but I hope too that the whole country can one day relax.

Yes Emsiewill, I am quite sure many men are scared to including my dh, this is one of his pet topics) but why is that? It's because unfortunately the behaviour of a tiny minority of their felow MEN are not so innocent in their intentions towards children

Something I think people need to be careful about, is that the two people haven't even been charged yet, and people are already talking about them as if they have been charged, tried and convicted. If they did it then I hope they are locked up and never let out, but if they didn't (and we do live in an 'innocent till proven guilty' society) then their lives will also have been wrecked. I'm not defending them at all, and I am as shocked as everyone else.

SueW, I don't know. The research I looked at didn't cover that. But men who are parents are more likely to notice lost kids than non-parents, I suppose. Though a few years ago I spotted a toddler in a nappy wandering along a busy London street during the morning rush hour and people were just walking round him - I couldn't believe my eyes! I picked him up and was on my way to the police station when he mother ran up. He'd toddled out of a front door she thought she'd closed. She wasn't very grateful, I have to say!

I totally agree Musica. I get the horrible feeling that as they haven't charged them yet then the evidence they have got is very thin on the ground which could mean that the person/people who did do this are still out there on our streets.

Musica and sister, the police found items of the girls clothing in the couples houses, the evidence was so strong that they said it was a murder enquiry even before they found the bodies. It does remind me of a case a year ago now? Of the bus driver who murdered that little boy, he was on tv and in the newspapers telling everyone of how he was the last person to see him and pleading with people to give information. I think they must get a kick out of all the attention. Sickos.

And Aloha I do understand what you are saying, but IMO the sexualisation of children does seem to be getting worse. The magazines that are aimed at kiddies now contain such explicit stuff they wouldn't have been allowed in an adult magazine 30 years ago. There is such a market now for children, they are being targeted as never before. When I was young, my mother used to buy all my clothes, I had no say in the matter at all, like many of my friends. But now kids are being given pocket money and have a choice what to spend it on, businesses know this and they fall over each other trying to exert power on this new bunch of consumers. All kids like to play 'grown-ups' but there is a stage where it goes too far.

Of course paedophilia has been around since man began, and there is no justifying it whatsoever. But I do cringe when I see innocent kids wearing t-shirts with the slogans 'kiss' and 'babe', they have no idea what they mean!! When we go out at the weekend we might wear clothing that would make men notice us, and IMO this is what some kids are doing - if they parade around in skimpy tops and skirts who are going to notice? Men of course, and I for one don't want any man looking at my dd in that way!

But in these two girls case, we do not know yet if the motive was paedophilia. He may well have just killed them with the help of his girlfriend, there may not have been a sexual motive. We mustn't jump to those kinds of conclusions. I just thank God that they were together, I hope it was quick.

I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying Rhubarb, but I don't think there is a link between children being preyed upon and the clothes the wear. Millie Dowler was in her school uniform, Holly and Jessica were in baggy unisex clothes. I suppose I find very overtly sexy clothes on children simply inappropriate and I don't like the commercial pressures on kids to be consumers. It was difficult to find a magazine for my 10-year-old stepdaughter that didn't make me cringe (the new entertainment based ones aren't so bad, and luckily she loved Art Attack). I think that a man who looks at a four year old with lust will look at her like that whatever she wears, though I do agree the boundary does start to blur once she is over 12. I don't think children see their clothes in a sexual way, however. They just want to be fashionable and for their friends to think they are trendy. My stepdaughter has a t-shirt with big, sequinned lips on it and she likes trendy jeans, but she hates boys! I'm more concerned that she'll feel as if there is something wrong with her for not having a boyfriend at 12 than I am worried about her wardrobe (yet).

I agree totally with the fashion points made. There are so many things I am not keen on(eg greed of party bags gone OTT one small eg) and I guess that I bow to peer pressure too as I don't want my children not to be part of the crowd. Around me I seem to be surrounded by parents who think I am archiac so I don't voice my opinions just go with the flow and hold back a little but a lot if I think safety is an issue of course.

Freaked out for a second today as my dd ran on ahead of us while out for a walk and a big car started to slow down for what seemed like ages they must have been looking for a particular road.

I don't think it's necessarily clothing that makes children "prey". I think it is anything that makes that child stand out at that particular time. It might have been the very fact that amanda dowler was wearing her uniform that made someone notice her, or that the two girls were both dressed identically. It could be that the child is extremely pretty, has an unusual hair colouring or is tall/small for their age; who knows what gets one person noticed and another ignored?

Lilibet - I totally agree with you about the bonding comment. My mum did not bond with me, and this did not make her a child killer! (Just not a very loving mother). I was using the bonding thing as an example of how hormones make women 'programmed' to care for children, to back up a previous comment.

I also agree with all you posters about 'sexy' outfits. My 13 year old niece has looked 18 for about three years, because she is so tall and fashionable. I find it scary, and can't help comparing her to the 13 year old me. Sure, I liked to be trendy, but fashions for teenagers in the '80s were less provocative IMO.

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Although I could swing for the older grey brigade sometimes, I think this is what is missing. You know, the old biddy or grandad that was never afraid to wade in and question/punish bad behaviour? I keep remembering the testimony of a lady in the Bulgar trial who had seen the 2 boys dragging a crying toddler with them, she said it would stay with her for the rest of her life that she hadn't insisted on taking hold of the child and taking him to his home. She instinctively knew something was wrong, but was afraid to get involved.

I agree that women are more likely to rescue a lost a child (and hormonally disposed to) but also agree that a man is less likely to because they are afraid of what others will think of him. I found it interesting about the European study of how we viewed a picture of the man and child, and rather sad that the British were most willing to think of him as a paedophile. Is there any particular country worse for this offence than any other? I really notice the difference in attitude when I holiday in Spain, all men whatever their age speak to babies and children and no-one bats an eyelid. Isn?t it rather unfair to judge men as being potential paedophiles just because they are men, this is just as bad as saying all women could be prostitutes just because some are. Or all car drivers are drunk drivers.

I wonder what the ratio of paedophiles is in countries like Sweden where nudity is common. Apparently teenage pregnancies are low in these countries but that could be because there is less poverty. I guess the bottom line is that we really don?t know what sort of person a paedophile is and what motives them.

Thanks for the message about the website. I was going to send a card but have just posted a condolence message instead.
Just feel helpless about it all and had a nightmare last night that my eldest was missing and I couldn't find him and then when I woke up, I couldn't get back to sleep thinking about those poor girls and how angry I feel about what has happened.
We spend all our time teaching our children about strangers and if it is right that it was the caretaker and his girlfriend then what hope have our children got? I can't believe they or any else could want to hurt children its beyond words.

Well, they are still being questioned on suspicion. I hate to be picky.

The Sun this morning pointed out the startling fact that you should always tell your children to let you know where they are or where they are going.

Nah, really?!

They also had loads of interviews with acquaintances of the 2 who have been held under suspicion. That is totally out of order. I don't buy newspapers, it was lying around at work.

I wish I wasn't at work though.

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At what point in a relationship do you discuss murdering children ? I just can't understand people like this and the Moors murderers.

I only hope that if they do arrest them they put them in an unprotected area of a prison and let the inmates sort them out.

Or let the girls parents at them tillysmummy. If anything like that happened to my children I'd like the chance to torture the people who did it. I know two wrongs don't make a right but I wouldn't be content with them just going to prison.

RobinW, I think they would have let these people go by now if they weren't 99% sure they were the murderers. They are keeping hold of them for as long as pos before charging them so that they can gather as much information as possible.

robinw, I'm worried that the press coverage will prevent a fair trial too, and that the case will be thrown out without being heard.

I also don't like the way that children (esp. girls) are encouraged to dress and act these days, mainly because they are too young to understand the implications of what they are doing. As adults we should know that the way we dress and our body language sends signals to those around us, although most of us still get it wrong from time to time. Children, however, just want to dress like their friends, and copying a magazines' tips on flirting and having a boyfriend is just a game. I believe that acting like a grown-up in this way makes children more vulnerable to finding themselves in situations they can't handle.