Missing Children

[Scared]

I don't know about anyone else, but the latest story of the two missing girls just terrifies me. I don't want to turn into one of these mothers who won't let their child out of their sight, but think that it is a distinct possibility.

I tend to look at the parents of children who go missing and wonder how they let it happen, but I know that it wasn't their fault really. It's just the unfairness of life that allows a child to wander off when the parent looks away for a second.

I watched a programme on James Bulger, and it broke my heart. I still cry when I see news articles about the killers being released. It scares me for my ds. I know I would never get over it if anything ever happened to him. I don't think that I would want to carry on living if it did.

As a child I went through a stage where I was really obsessed with strangers, because we had a 'funny' man (weird euphamism) outside our school gates offering money to girls. I wouldn't go anywhere on my own, and it reached a stage where my mum despaired about me. I still worry about being out on my own in certain situations.

Anyway, I guess that I am asking how people on this site have ensured the safety of their children, without making them scared of everyone in the town!

Aaaargh....!

Personally I can't believe that care for that sick B*ard is costing us £2k a day - taxpayers money !! Lots of people are mentally ill. It's no excuse.

No-one could condone the crime, but until it can be proved that he was of sound mind and wilfully killed those girls, he should have the benefit of the doubt. If he is mentally ill then he does need care, not incarceration.That is not to say that he should be released if mentally ill and guilty, absolutely not, but a prison is no place for any kind of treatment/ rehabilitation programme. BTW I have visited Rampton, and it is absolutely ghastly. By no means a holiday camp and nothing like a hospital.

Also, I would have thought it was very difficult to cope with severely mentally ill & dangerous people in an ordinary prison without specialist facilities. I think it might be too hard for the staff and other prisoners (who won't all be serious offenders, by any means. I'm sure Rampton is an awful place. Ian Brady keeps trying to kill himself to escape but they won't let him, so it is clearly worse than a death sentence for him.

Indeed Tissy.

There are about 300 permanent patients and 100 non permanent at any given time. The non-permanent have usually been moved from other hospitals and have been sectioned - usually because they are likely to kill themselves.

Chinchilla I may have inferred certain things wrongly. However, in general there seems to be a lot of ignorance about mental health difficulties. I read it everywhere I go.

You have good days and bad days. The fact that someone was ok one day, doesn't mean they were feeling well on another day. Being ill would never get someone a lighter sentence. In fact it gives them a longer one. Psychiatric units are not nice places. In fact, I would rather go to prison. At least there nobody is going to try and give you drugs you don't want or cut parts of your brain out under a court order.

In fact, this raises another issue. Where are people supposed to go when they don't feel well? Fear of being locked up stops people coming forward when they think they might be ill. Michael Stone tried to get some support and was turned away.

Off topic really but because of legal restrictions, details of the reasons why police have brought the charge of trying to pervert the course of justic to Ms Carr - which carries a maximum life sentence - cannot be reported.

www.guardian.co.uk/child/story/0,7369,778574,00.html

"hospitals...maintain positive relationships with patients by avoiding reading their case notes and reminding themselves of the patients' history of suffering"

Unfortunately, many people in prison do have psychiatric problems and shouldn't be there, possibly the worst place for them. I know from people who work in prisons (not as officers or warders) that prisoners may be kept sedated and if not already drug addicts are at risk of becoming drug users.

I was also talking to the governor of a women's prison and she reckoned probaly 80-90% of the inmates should really be in a psychiatric hospital, not in prison. They do the best they can for the women but without specialist facilities the most they can hope for is to keep them safe while they are 'inside'.

I read recently that the UK has a higher proportion of its population in prison than anywhere else in the EU. I wonder why that is - surely we are not more inclined to be criminals than, say Germany or Spain?

Yes, you are right Jbr about mental health ignorance. I have suffered from depression twice in my life. I have come up against this ignorance myself, but understand that people who have never suffered from depression will only ever be able to sympathise, not empathise. However, there is a huge difference between the various mental illnesses, and I don't pretend to understand them all because I have suffered from one.

I am not going to comment any more about his mental state, as this remains to be proved by two professionals. However, I still feel that the situation is a bit weird. And why did his girlfriend cover up for him? I could never do this if dh committed a murder.

It is like Peter Sutcliffe's wife and mother. He managed to convince them that he had not done anything wrong on the night of one of the murders, and they gave him a false alibi. I could never do this, even if I thought dh was innocent. I suppose he is like this Ian Huntley, in the fact that he lived a 'normal' life, and did not seem to be the sort of person who could commit a crime like that. However, he is in prison, and has not been declared mentally unfit, as far as I know, so where does the line get drawn?

No, Peter Sutcliffe is in Broadmoor Mental Hospital as far as I know.

Ian Brady is in Ashworth.

As regards covering up for an offender partner, I'm sure everyone would like to think that they would not do so in a case like this but how can you really make that statement without knowing the dynamics of this particular relationship. I know I have been in relationships where my behaviour, when viewed in hindsight, as been inexplicable to me now.

Tinker, you're right. I was mistaken. Still, same principle really. Confinement in a mental hospital can be a worse punishment for some people than dying. Also, the place sounds like the inner circle of Hell.

Tinkner - India comment...lol

I meant Tinker - but am having to pacify ds while clenching moby 2 ear. Have been on hold to BA for 3/4 of hour and am about to spontaneously combust, hence xxxx spelling.

May I just add here that Beverley Allit, the nurse who murdered 4 babies and was responsible for the attempted murder of dozens of others, not to mention the ones she left brain damaged, is also being held in a high security mental institution (I forget which one). If anyone saw the documentary that was done about her they will have seen her crocheting a teddy bear design. She is allowed to come and go out of her room as she pleases, she joins in various activities, they have a tv lounge and so on, she has even been allowed to start a relationship and says she will get married. She gave a short interview on the documentary in which she sounded very coherent and articulate. Needless to say, the babies parents are very angry and very disgusted. Getting away with it? I think so.

That documentary about Beveley Allitt was outrageous. They couldn't even spell her name right and someone even tried to deny the existence of Munchausen by Proxy.

Beverley Allitt is in Rampton, where Ian Huntley is.

Thank you musica for the Peter Sutcliffe info, I didn't realise this.

Rhubarb - I agree with you about Beverley Allitt. I'm sure that all these cases have more depth to them than the public are ever told, but it did seem (to me - this is only an opinion) that she was getting a better life than a convicted child killer should.

BTW other poster (sorry, can't remember who) - I do believe that I would never give my dh a false alibi. Of course in practice this might be different, but I'm hoping that the situation will never arise

This is going to sound terrible, but a friend of mine received an e-mail today from her friend who lives in Soham. He says that the local gossip is that the children's bodies were burnt and then hidden under the school stage in front of which the police and families gave their press conferences. I just hope and pray (for once in my life) that this is not true. We have debated this all day in our office wondering how it would be possible to kill 2 children without leaving any forensic traces?

On the 'it's in the newspapers, so it must be true' debate. I've been in Court during some prosecutions, and then have read the report in the papers, and wondered if the reporter had been in the same place as me, since what I recall happened and what has been reported were not the same thing at all! And I dont drink during the day either! Not saying it's the same for every case, but it's taught me to be very very cynical about what I read in the papers and see on the news.

if they are convicted they should go into a cell and stay there. simple as that, no tv, no pool, no work, no books, no papers, no games, no photos, nothing but a bed and a toilet ... excersize alone once a day ( in accordance with some european rule or other probably) then send them back. they deserve nothing, they have taken everything

I saw that Maxine Carr has a history of suicide attempts, including trying to stab herself in the stomach. She was also away with her parents in Grimsby when the girls were taken. I think it's very, very possible she had nothing to do with their deaths at all, but she is a very weak, disturbed and damaged young woman who helped her dominating, mad and scary partner cover up his crime. I'm not defending that, but it's very different from kidnap and murder. I know I wouldn't cover up a crime like that, but I wouldn't stab myself in the stomach either, so I suspect she wouldn't behave like a 'normal' person. I think it shows her role in a new light.

Rhubarb, that is right and you know what, Beverley Allit said that she found it very pleasant, being able to come and go as she pleased, play games etc.

I am sorry I just don't think they deserve that sort of treatment. There are lots of disturbed people in the world but we can't make excuses for them and they do know right from wrong. People that commit these sort of crimes need punishment. If there is no punishment where is the deterrant. I am afraid I am not very charitable about this topic. I feel very strongly that they should be punished not protected.

JBR, they did not try to deny the existence of Munchausen by Proxy at all, they simply said it was a term of behaviour, not a mental illness. The term can be expanded to cover a wide range of behaviours from hypocrondriacs to mothers who deliberately harm their children. The reason she is in Rampton is not because of Munchausen, but some other personality disorder.

So why exactly did you find the programme so outrageous, other than that they spelt her name wrong, which you did too in your last post. Is it so outrageous that she is now living quite a nice life despite murdering four babies? That she is probably getting more help than the victims parents or even the babies she left damaged? Perhaps because she has a 'personality disorder' she should be set free because it wasn't her fault? I'm sorry but having a mental illness is not an excuse for murder and I'm fed up of murderers getting more care and more treatment in this society than the victims do. It's outrageous that Beverley Allitt is allowed to have relationships, take up hobbies, wander around the complex and have a social life when these babies parents are left simply asking 'why?', a question that Ms Allitt refuses to answer.

And Kia, please do not listen to rumours such as these. The official statement is that the children have been at the woods since day 1 of their abduction. If these rumours got back to their parents, imagine how awful that would be for them. Have they not gone through enough already without some sickos starting rumours about their children's deaths?

There isn't much of a "why" with Munchausen by Proxy. It's not an easy illness to explain.

It's very rare, Munchausen is more common than the by Proxy spin-off. However with Munchausen where people are making themselves ill, as opposed to when they are making other people ill, there is very little interest in it.