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Parenting

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Missing Children

285 replies

Scared · 07/08/2002 19:38

I don't know about anyone else, but the latest story of the two missing girls just terrifies me. I don't want to turn into one of these mothers who won't let their child out of their sight, but think that it is a distinct possibility.

I tend to look at the parents of children who go missing and wonder how they let it happen, but I know that it wasn't their fault really. It's just the unfairness of life that allows a child to wander off when the parent looks away for a second.

I watched a programme on James Bulger, and it broke my heart. I still cry when I see news articles about the killers being released. It scares me for my ds. I know I would never get over it if anything ever happened to him. I don't think that I would want to carry on living if it did.

As a child I went through a stage where I was really obsessed with strangers, because we had a 'funny' man (weird euphamism) outside our school gates offering money to girls. I wouldn't go anywhere on my own, and it reached a stage where my mum despaired about me. I still worry about being out on my own in certain situations.

Anyway, I guess that I am asking how people on this site have ensured the safety of their children, without making them scared of everyone in the town!

OP posts:
Jbr · 15/08/2002 17:18

I think the fact that it's a "quiet news week" as it's known in the profession accounts for the OTT reporting of every little thing. I can't believe someone would try and make money out of this by getting interviewed in the papers. Nobody should profit from a crime. I have more contempt for those sort of people than any other quite frankly.

Controversial comment this (but when did that ever stop me) but when white, middle class children go missing it hits the headlines. Tons of children go missing every day yet only certain "types" get this much coverage.

On a different note, what do you think of this?

"New sentencing guidelines for paedophiles issued

A new league table of child porn offences to help judges give appropriate sentences to paedophiles has been published.

The Sentencing Advisory Panel has rejected significant toughening of punishments for child porn offenders, and says the 10-year maximum jail term should be reserved for "very serious examples".

They rejected the view - expressed by some who responded to a consultation exercise earlier this year - that offenders who view or collect child porn should always go to jail.

And while the higher sentencing powers available to judges granted the scope to punish serious cases, there was a "less obvious need ... for markedly more severe sentencing of cases at the lower end of the scale".

The report said: "We do not ... agree with the small minority of respondents who suggested that a custodial penalty should always be imposed for these offences. Nor do we accept the point that offences involving child pornography should automatically be treated as being of equal seriousness to child abuse."

The new sentencing system features a five-point sliding scale ranging from "nude or erotic posing" in level one to images of sadism or bestiality in level five.

A spokesman for the panel, an independent body set up in 1998 to advise the Court of Appeal on sentencing guidelines, said : "The panel believes that sentencing for these offences should reflect the harm suffered by children who are abused and exploited by pornographers.

"Even an offender who has simply downloaded images from the Internet for his own use, without showing or distributing them to others, must bear some responsibility for the child abuse involved in making the images."

Anyone who shows or distributes child porn to others, or has a "moderate or large amount" of material in level two or above, should go to jail, the report added. But a community sentence could be justified if the offender has a "large amount of material at level one and/or no more than a small number of images at level two, but where the material had not been distributed or shown to others".

The Court of Appeal will now consider whether to issue an official sentencing guideline based on today's recommendations."

I don't know what to think myself.

emsiewill · 15/08/2002 19:16

Thanks for all your feedback.
I should perhaps clarify a bit; the swimming pool in question is part of a very small leisure centre attached to a school, therefore the facilities are not (able to be) the same as the ones at the main council-run pool (not that we have family changing there, either). The only thing going on at that point in the swimming pool is the lessons for these 5 or 6 5 year olds. I've never been there before this week, and so wasn't aware of "rules" like this, just assumed that the mums had all brought the children because the dads were at work or whatever. To be honest, I don't think the situation had arisen before, and I suppose dh should maybe have asked at reception what he should do, but it just seems so stupid, of course he would not normally go into a ladies' changing room, but knowing that there were 5 or 6 mixed sex 5 year olds in there and that the mens were not open, he just followed his instinct. I know I should complain, but it just feels like a waste of time - the swimming lessons finish tomorrow, dh is away, and even when she starts going again for weekly lessons, it will be me taking her. I know it's a selfish attitude, but I just don't have the energy for a fight at the moment.

lou33 · 15/08/2002 19:37

No Rhubarb I wasn't offended, so don't feel you have to apologise! I just wanted to clarify that i was aware of the difference between an innocent and genuine friendliness and something more sinister, and this man was the latter. Dh read my posting afterwards and said on reading it he wished he had flattened him ,as that is exactly how it happened!

Btw I completely agree with the comments you made about the media and their interviews, as well as children using the internet. I feel uncomfortable listening to "friends of friends" talking about the girls, and thought it was wrong to put one of their school mates through the stress of an appeal.

As regards to the use of the internet, my 10 year old is allowed to access it, but the pc is in the living room and she has to check with me first which site she goes on, so if it is a new one I have to vet it first to make sure it is suitable. She is not allowed on chat rooms at all, no arguments, and she can't hide that fact as long as the pc is in my view. I won't even let her use google to search things because even the most mundane words can throw up all sorts of porn sites.

I don't mean this as any criticism at all about the poor girls that have gone missing, it's such a dreadful situation and I feel deeply for their families.

Just reaffirming my own paranoia.

aloha · 15/08/2002 19:41

I don't think 'tons' of children go missing every day. In fact, I think it is incredibly rare for two children from happy homes with no reason to run away to vanish completely like this. I agree that black children would probably not grip the public (not just the 'media' in the same way, and that is sad. And yes, there aren't that many other big stories around at the moment, but why is this so awful? I'm sure the parents of Holly & Jessica want as much publicity as possible if it will lead anyone to help solve this strange and awful situation. At the moment the police seem to have no leads whatsoever, so they will want to keep this in the public eye. What are the papers supposed to do, ignore this? I don't understand why people are so cross with the papers. I think the rewards are rather crass and pointless publicity stunts, but if the girls have been taken, then I hardly think it's the papers we should be condemning...

SueW · 15/08/2002 19:48

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request.

monkey · 15/08/2002 20:00

I think Batters has raised an interesting point. I honestly don't want to offend you Batters, I was just curious, as I've never even considered the situation before.

I have 2 ds's, and when out & about, I automatically take them to the ladies'. OK, they're young now, but even when quite a bit older, I'll still do the same, and it wouldn't occur to me in a million years to take them into the gent's.

So, I'd always assumed that a parent would take a child, regardless of the child's gender, into the toilet of the parent's gender. Is that clear? So I was surprised by you saying dh had taken, or tried to,take dd into the ladies. Is this what most dads do? I'm honestly not having a go, or being funny, just curious. Has he/your family always followed this? Has he never had any complaints before? What do other families do? I guess male toilets can be unsalubrious, so I sort of understand why your dh took/tried to take her to the ladies', but I can also see the cafe's point, as I'm sure plenty of women would be uncomfortable with a man in the ladies', (even though it was to help his daughter), although any mention of abuse is obviously plain ridiculous.

Lucy123 · 15/08/2002 20:06

Wow, I wouldn't like to think of my dd (or in fact a young ds if I had one) going anywhere near a gents loo, simply because of the urinals - they stink and there would be acres of scope for embarassing "look at that man's willy" comments. The Ladies is always cleaner and always has cubicles - sometimes Gents don't (OK I've only ever been in the Gents in dire emergency / massive queue situations, but dp has told me that a cubicle with a door is often unavailable). Must ask dp what he'd do.

Chinchilla · 15/08/2002 23:03

I don't think that the media have a bias towards white, middle class children in their reporting. It is probably the fact that more of these type of children get abducted, for whatever reason.

The press reported on the poor two year old who was murdered by the sea (although the killer turned out to be his mother, so the case is not the same). Plus, look at Damilola Taylor. I know that this is not an abduction case, but it shows my point.

Maybe because I am not racist in any way I fail to spot it (and I am NOT implying that people are racist if they do!) I just assume that everyone thinks like me, and that race, religion etc is not an issue. Naive maybe? I would hate to think that the killer of, say, a black child would be allowed to escape conviction because of biased reporting. What a sad world we live in if this is the case. But then it is a sad world, otherwise this thread would not be here.

Jbr · 15/08/2002 23:26

I did have some stats on missing children, but can't find them!

Not very useful is it?!

Alibubbles · 16/08/2002 09:52

With regard to police checks (CRB) i have just had one done on my daughter so she can be my registered assistant childminder (at Ofsteds suggestion). It took less than 4 weeks from requesting a form to receiving the certificate back. I applied on July 8th, it was back on Aug 1st!

Lucy123 · 16/08/2002 10:13

Chinchilla - I think there is a class (not necessarily race) bias in abduction reports. A good example is the case of Amanda Dowler - her case was all over the papers, but another girl of a similar age (but working class) went missing at about the same time - can't remember her name - and her case only got into the papers because the police initially thought her body was Amanda's.

I think part of it is that nice middle class girls do not run away (in theory), but working class ones do. Where the killing of a child is particularly brutal though I think it gets into the papers anyway as in the Damilola Taylor case. Also remember that he came from a middle class background. It is possible that if he were a working class tearaway, it would have been less widely reported.

And of course kids murdered by members of their family often get shunted out of the papers altogether.

Jbr · 16/08/2002 10:56

I did have a Guardian article about race/class bias but I can't find it now.

Anyway, this was in today's Guardian.

"The disappearance and likely abduction of Jessica Chapman and Holly Wells has been described as every parent's nightmare. And looking at the public reaction to cases of this nature - for example, Sarah Payne and Amanda Dowler - it would seem that stranger abduction is indeed something that parents worry about disproportionately to the scale of the risk involved. Children, too, have nightmares about stranger abduction, and are threatened with it in folklore - how many of us remember being told we would be taken away by the wicked witch or the bogeyman?
The huge media attention given to the deaths of children killed by strangers is likely to leave us with a distorted view of the risks. According to Home Office statistics, between five and seven children a year are killed by someone they don't know - a figure that has remained constant over 30 years, even though the population has grown. Each one is a tragedy, but the chances of your child dying at the hands of a stranger is minuscule.

It is far more likely - about 45 times more likely - that a child will be abducted by its father during contact visits, often resulting in the mother never seeing the child again if it is taken to live overseas. These cases are reported differently, as "tug-of-love" stories, despite the fact that here, too, a child has been forcibly removed from its other parent, siblings and life. In 2001, 273 children were abducted in this way, and yet we hear so very little about them.

Most likely of all, though - 20,000 times more likely than abduction by a stranger - is that a child will go missing voluntarily. Every year, 100,000 people under the age of 18 go missing, forced to run away to escape something unbearable at home. Research by the Children's Society found that the reasons for children leaving home range from physical and mental abuse, sexual assault by a family member (one in seven runaway children cited this as the reason) and poor parenting (including alcoholism, poverty and neglect). Some 10% of calls to the National Missing Persons Helpline each year (about 10,000 in total) are from children between the ages of eight and 12.

Girls are twice as likely to run away than boys, particularly those in care homes. According to the Children's Society, 45% of children in care run away overnight (and half of those children had run away from home before going into care).

Most children are found after one night, but about 1,300 will still be missing after two weeks. This means that in the 12 days since Holly and Jessica disappeared, another 40 children will probably have left home, to go missing for just as long. Some will disappear for months on end, and some will never return. It is impossible to know how many of them die as a result of murder, overdose or simply the ill health that is a consequence of living on the streets.

Some girls and boys, who have often left home to escape abuse, are then led into prostitution or pornography. There are no exact figures for how many children are currently involved in street prostitution in the UK, but Barnado's reported that police and social services had contact with at least 600 underage girls working as prostitutes in one year.

It is comforting for us to think that, though runaways may be at risk, "normal" children are safe in the home. But what if home is not a safe haven for a child, but a place of abuse, torture and degradation? And what if the abuser is not a stereotypical psychotic, but a family member? Almost by definition, we don't know how many children are sexually abused at home - though some of the children's charities have estimated that one in four of all children experience such abuse - but even the most conservative estimates leave us in no doubt that, statistically, home is the place where children are most at risk.

As a society, we have a romantic, sentimental view of children. We say that they are the most precious creatures on earth, and yet in so many cases we stand by while harm comes to them. We tend to protest loudest when a "well behaved" child goes missing from a "respectable family". It is as if the safety of a happy child is more dear to us than that of those who are society's rejects.

Let's always insist upon the most vigorous police investigation of cases such as Jessica and Holly, and be touched by a community response such as the one in this case. But can we also remember those children who may never even have been reported missing, such as one of the victims in the West case?

Let us remember, too, where the most likely danger for children lies - in the family, at the hands of men who know them."

I don't like the demonising of men in this article I have to say!

sis · 16/08/2002 13:02

Alibubbles, I think it is quicker to get a disclosure if the disclosure is about the person applying - it seems to take a lot longer if you are applying as an employer or potential employer as you have to be a registered body or go through an umbrella registered body...

On a different issue, I saw a woman on the tube this morning wearing a t-shirt with the following slogan printed in about 1" writing "I take sweets from strangers". I know it was worn by an adult and probably just a difference in sense of humour but the slogan made me feel really sad and disappointed and has stayed in my head all morning.

Rhubarb · 16/08/2002 15:06

Aloha - I know the media has to report on this. But I do think that photographing and interviewing the girls class mates must have been awful for the children, very stressful and emotional. Also I don't see how that can help. The people in the town of Soham have also been getting fed up of the media intrustion, having cameras thrust into their faces everywhere they go. There was a meeting yesterday I think, between residents and the police, and some journalists tried to gatecrash it, they were thrown out by the residents.

I know media coverage helps to keep the girls' disappearance in everyone's mind, but some journalists can go too far in getting their story. Just look at how they tried and condemned Joanne (the girlfriend of the backpacker who went missing in Australia) because she refused to co-operate with them. Not everyone wants their face on every newspaper and every tv station, some people just want to get on with their lives. The media really should respect this.

SueW · 16/08/2002 15:50

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request.

rosehip · 16/08/2002 16:50

I agree with the t'shirt slogan comment - 'babe' and 'diva' etc. at 3 is very disturbing - why on earth do these manufactures make them?, shops sell them - there must be the demand or little altertnative. My daughter is almost 6 and I often look at the younger range in Next(up to 4) and these would suit her perfectly.
When they get to this age more often than not you have little choice in what they wear as there only seems to be 'tacky' stuff in the shops (I accept there are a few exceptions) Also there doesn't appear to be the same problem with boys and slogans or have I missed the 'hunk' and 'muscle man' t'shirts for my ds!!
Like everyone I can't get those 2 girls and their parents out of my mind and my children are getting away with all sorts at the moment - it just makes you think, what if ....

Jbr · 16/08/2002 17:07

Well here's some news.

"A school caretaker and his girlfriend are being questioned about the disappearance of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman.

Officers are also searching their house in the girls' home village of Soham in Cambridgeshire, and the local school, Soham Village College.

Ian Huntley, 28, and his partner Maxine Carr, 25, had agreed with police to give witness statements and were at police stations elsewhere in the county.

The news was announced at a hastily arranged news conference at the college 12 days after the two ten-year-olds vanished after walking through the village.

Detective Chief Inspector Andy Hebb did not name Mr Huntley, a site manager at the College, and Ms Carr, a teaching assistant in Holly and Jessica's class at St Andrews Primary School in Soham until the end of last term.

Reading from a prepared statement, Mr Hebb said: "In the last few minutes a 28-year-old man and a 25-year-old woman, both from the Soham area, have been spoken to by police officers and have agreed to give witness statements to us.

"They have both been taken to police stations elsewhere in the county for that purpose.

"A police search team is about to start carrying out a detailed examination of their house in Soham for any evidence that may point to the whereabouts of the two missing girls, Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman.

"A search is also about to be mounted in Soham Village College looking for similar evidence.

"In the circumstances it would be inappropriate for me to make any further comment at this stage other than to say this development is one of many active and interesting lines of inquiry."

I don't understand that bit about the the DI not naming the people "until the end of last term".

Unless it's just badly written.

Jbr · 16/08/2002 17:08

Oh, I get it now.

threeangels · 16/08/2002 22:19

I was just reading this thread and this case just popped in my mind. Dont know if most of you would know of this but I thought it was so sad it made me a little teary eyed. A young man and his wife were just arrested yesterday because apparently their 3 mo old baby was killed supposedly by them. The baby apparently had every single rib broken along with one arm and one leg. I hope if proven they did do this (most probally did) they get the death sentence. I cringe when I hear of these types of tragedies. They said this was the worse case of abuse they had ever seen.

emsiewill · 16/08/2002 22:22

I can't believe how badly the police seem to be handling this latest "development". They have clearly stated that they have taken these 2 people in for "witness statements" (which is apparently v. normal, straightforward procedure), and they're all over the 10 o'clock news, with pictures/interviews which make them look as guilty as hell. Of course no stone should be left unturned, to find out what has happened to the 2 girls, but when these people go home again, there will be a lynch mob outside their house. Whatever happened until innocent until proved guilty. Surely if the police really believed they were suspicious they would charge them, or arrest them, not just take them in for witness statements?

Jbr · 16/08/2002 22:31

Threeangels, one child a week on average dies like that in the UK. It is just beyond comprehension, such systematic abuse.

Emsiewill, the police didn't give out their names, but somehow the press know it's the people who they have spoken to before. It took me about 3 hours to realise it is the teacher they were talking about the other day, the one who didn't get the job or something. I can't remember what exactly, but it took me a while to realise it was 2 people who have actually given their stories to the newspapers.

emsiewill · 16/08/2002 22:37

But why did the police call a press conference to announce that they were taking these 2 people in for "statements"? Earlier on Radio Five there were a number of former (senior) police officers expressing their bewilderment at the way this latest "development" has been handled by the police. Believe me, I've got no axe to grind here - if they are guilty, I will be only too happy to be proved wrong, but it seems wrong that the media have jumped on these people with the least evidence.

Jbr · 16/08/2002 22:43

Yes, I bet lots of people have given statements of one sort or another. These people even went voluntarily.

One news story on Ananova referred to the fact that they had "only" been working in the area for 9 months and the man has changed his name for "family reasons" (their inverted commas, not mine. It's as if they doubt his reasons for changing his name).

So?!

emsiewill · 16/08/2002 22:46

I've just read the same story on Freeserve where they mention that they were only in the area for 9 months and that he was formerly known as something else. So what?
I'm not normally the sort of person who gets riled by this sort of thing, but this has really got my goat. Perhaps it's because I recently spent a week at my dads reading the Daily Mail, and I just can't take any more one sided reporting.

Jbr · 16/08/2002 23:01

I do not like the Daily Mail. My hatred of it even spreads to people who live the life "recommended" by the damn paper.

Anyway, The Guardian says "LATEST: Police are no longer questioning the school workers over missing girls. More soon..."

What does that mean?

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