Alfie Kohn/Unconditional Parenting. Is it possible in a normally boistrous 3 year old with pretty much no ability to sit and reflect?

[fillyjonk]

I am re-reading Unconditional Parenting

The trouble is that I CANNOT see how to work it with my family.

Sometimes my kids have to do things when I need them to do them. And also NOT to do things when I need them not to do them. I think that this is partly because I have youngish kids (3 and 2) and partly becuase I have 2 with a small age gap. And they DO fight and take all the juice and hit each other. And I am not really willing to sit with them and say "now fillygirl, how do you think fillyboy felt when you hit him?", to which she will say "Happy! Happy!" and giggle and run away.

But also, this sitting down and reflecting on stuff business. My 3 year can't/won't do that. I have no idea if its developmentally normal/a boy thing or whatever but...and if he won't, how can I get a 2 year old to do it?

Also I think he is telling you not to say thank you to your kids. I can't do that! It'd be rude!

I know one woman who i think does follow Alfie Kohn. She is a very good parent, though I think she gets very burnt out at times. But she has only one.

Thoughts?

I'm reading this thread with great interest as I'm very ignorant, and am hesitating to ask this because possibly I should just read AK, but I don't have time to read anything extra at the moment so:

What is the concern about praise? I do intuitively praise in a specific way I think. But sometimes I am so amazed at what dd1 is doing that I'll exclaim, "oh, I love that dance! You're really good at dancing!" or similar - which I gather is "wrong" according to AK.

I'm open to all ideas I hope, but given that dd1 is a toddler and challenging all the boundaries all the time, sometimes it's great to just be completely enthusiatic about what she's doing. It feels right, in other words.

So why could it be a problem?

(Am bracing myself for an answer of "just read the bloody book" which would be perfectly acceptable by the way .)

danae, agree rice cakes are deadly! oh the good behaviour- i can't justify this really. I suppose i kind of think kids OUGHT to be testing boundries and so on and when they DON'T I am a bit . Am prob being very unfair. I suppose I don't see how they can grow into their own person really, if they are not pushing against their parents at all (am talking about actual kids here). AK fans do shoot me down. I mean these kids (they are cousins so there might be a genetic link) do EVERYTHING they are told, pretty much. tbh I don't WANT that (am probably projecting this onto my kids which is why they don't)

These mothers also have attacks of the vapours if another smelly kid so much as touches theirs, and are VERY selective about who their kids play with, and I find that weird and controlling if i am honest.

here you go wellie- kohn on praise

ah i've worked out what is, perhaps, my prob with him

these things happen

there is SO much empahsis in the books on being a perfect calm parent that he gives no strategy, no way to get yourself back on track, when it fails.

OK, having read the bit about praise (thanks for the link) I can see how it can have a negative effect and how it can be a way of reinforcing behaviour and hence manipulative - but I remember my mum just lecturing me about how I should do things around the house without her asking and sometimes I would really have appreciated a thank you for unloading the dishwasher before she got back from work. If you do something nice for someone it's pretty soul-destroying if they don't seem pleased!

So for eg last night ds1 laid the table for dinner without me asking and I was really pleased, so why shouldn't I say thank you? And it is the sort of behaviour I want to encourage and I can't quite see how giving him a bit of praise will make him less thoughtful?

I guess what I'm saying is, what is the big problem with behaviourism? Is it because a child then does something because of the praise or reward? And what's wrong with that - as an adult I do some things because they're my responsibility and some because it makes me feel good to make my friend/partner/child happy and I'd be pretty ticked off if they didn't at least seem happy although I wouldn't expect them to go into paroxysms of delight!

Sorry, bit of a ramble, kids champing at the bit to go out

This is an important bit -
"This doesn?t mean that all compliments, all thank-you?s, all expressions of delight are harmful. We need to consider our motives for what we say (a genuine expression of enthusiasm is better than a desire to manipulate the child?s future behavior) as well as the actual effects of doing so. Are our reactions helping the child to feel a sense of control over her life -- or to constantly look to us for approval? Are they helping her to become more excited about what she?s doing in its own right ? or turning it into something she just wants to get through in order to receive a pat on the head".
He's not saying that all praise is bad.

Although reading it again this bit
"(a genuine expression of enthusiasm is better than a desire to manipulate the child?s future behavior)" seems a bit as for me the expression of enthusiasm is bound to manipulate the child's future behaviour.

Message withdrawn

Personally I think a lot of it comes down to personality.

DS2 is and always has been very 'good'. Ds3 is (to use common terminology) very 'naughty'. The biggest difference is that ds3 has always had very strong ideas about what he wants. DS2 have never been so opinionated, and is much happier to be told what to do.

Don't really agree that reinforcement is always manipulative. Sitting down explaining things will be reinforcing for many children anyway.

Problem is what if I see a picture my child has done and I think 'what a load of crock, you really aren't that talented at painting are you? or what on earth is that ...?' I don't think my genuine response in this case is very useful because often it is more about me and my issues rather than my child's. Therefore a neutral response in that case is best in my opinion.

In the end my child will probably work out for themselves whether they are good at painting or not and whether they enjoy it anyway regardless of their ability at it.

By extrapolation though, if my opininon that he drawing is rubbish isn't always valid then why on earth is my oinion that it is great any more valid.

I find myself agreeing with AK a lot. However on a day to day basis I do find myself screaming like a harridan a good proportion of the time.

Also I do agree with FJ that children who are too 'well behaved' worry me a bit but I'm willing to see that maybe some of that is because I was well-bahaved as a child and for me that was about no rocking the boat and being well behaved so that I would be accepted more.

It is possible I suppose that some children are quiet and well behaved because being like that is a reflection of their inner peace and contentment and they have no need for conflict. My natural inclination is to believe that some conflict is necessary for growth and development.

Sorry, was offline yesterday -

Thanks very much for the link filly - have just read it and need to have a think - definitely food for thought there.

Oh I missed this thread til now, could have done with coming on here this week as I have been reading the great book and putting bits into practice, in general I would say to reasonably good effect but I have exploded at my DTs twice today (ok, I do have raging period pain, but even so...) I think they are wondering what's happened to mum and I am wondering why my lovely girls who were always pretty well behaved most of the time have turned into pesky little buggers or it could just be 10 days of PMT and the fact that they're 3.6...

I would also like to add that personality definitely makes a difference - DT2 will happily reflect and discuss anything she does, Dt1 is on another planet most of the time and I struggle to get yes/no answers to closed questions from her reflection is a long way off