Alfie Kohn/Unconditional Parenting. Is it possible in a normally boistrous 3 year old with pretty much no ability to sit and reflect?

[fillyjonk]

I am re-reading Unconditional Parenting

The trouble is that I CANNOT see how to work it with my family.

Sometimes my kids have to do things when I need them to do them. And also NOT to do things when I need them not to do them. I think that this is partly because I have youngish kids (3 and 2) and partly becuase I have 2 with a small age gap. And they DO fight and take all the juice and hit each other. And I am not really willing to sit with them and say "now fillygirl, how do you think fillyboy felt when you hit him?", to which she will say "Happy! Happy!" and giggle and run away.

But also, this sitting down and reflecting on stuff business. My 3 year can't/won't do that. I have no idea if its developmentally normal/a boy thing or whatever but...and if he won't, how can I get a 2 year old to do it?

Also I think he is telling you not to say thank you to your kids. I can't do that! It'd be rude!

I know one woman who i think does follow Alfie Kohn. She is a very good parent, though I think she gets very burnt out at times. But she has only one.

Thoughts?

yes i did get that mb

mine was also a joke, if you look closely...

fillyjonk

I read AK and came out at pretty much the same place as you. There are times when quiet discussion and reflection seems appropriate and times when shouting at top volume 'No, just put your shoes on now' seems the only sensible course of action. I think the AK philosophy is something to grasp at a higher level, something that informs the way you see and interact with your child but doesn't mould every minute of every day. I also think it makes much much more sense when all your children are school age.

I agree with Mr AK about knee-jerk praise and I've noticed that when presented with a new 'work of art' our very very professional nanny will always say things like "You made her shoes purple, that was an interesting choice. Was it to match her shoes?". That's admirable, but I wonder if it's quite the same for the child as an utterly sincere parental 'Bloody Hell! That's amazing!"

Anyway, this reminds me that I need to re-read UP.

yes agree issy esp re the praise

ds was painting today and he did a great picutre of a spaceship

so i'm meant to say "do you like the picture?" " you put a handprint there to be an alien"

but thats not what I'm THINKING. I'm thinking, wow, thats a fantastic picture, it actually LOOKS like a spaceship and my god its only yesterday that we brought you home from the hospital you young genius.

And I did think that the idea that if I say "wow thats a fabulous painting fillyboy" he will take from that, not, mummy really likes this painting, but that "mummy will not love me if I don't do GOOD paintings.". Am about it.

is it not to leave the child room to self critcise though? He might be sitting thinking "this painting did not turn out how i wanted"

You come along and say"wow it's fab"

child thinks" my mother knows nothing "

child thinks" my mother knows nothing"

well the sooner they work that one out the better

I tend to say "I really like that picture, the sky is so blue etc etc" Is that wrong?

Have never heard of AK, but found Juuules' list quite interesting.

The other day I was in a cafe with DS (3.5) when he wanted to go to the loo. He got up to go, but suddenly turned back. My immediate thought was that he was just being annoying, however, luckily I didn't try to chivvy him along as he just wanted to tell the lady in the cafe what he was doing so that she didn't take his muffin away. I often think that life with DS would be easier if I always had the time/gave him the time to be good.

Its less easy to do this when we are late for nursery and he won't put his shoes on, but in a perfect world...

It seems to be quite Montessori in some ways re: the rewards thing (DS is at a Montessori nursery) - the expectation is that children want to behave well/ do their work well and that the achievement in itself is its own reward. They seem better at practicing the philosophy than me though.

oh aargh wrote long reply and then dd deleted it

in a nutshell i am not convinced that it matters that much what parents say, it is their intent behind it.

I also feel that to not praise at ALL would for me feel a bit manipulative. It would seem dishonest to me. If I think a painting is great, I want to say so. I take on board the idea about being specific, thats a common suggestion really. But if you ask you to look at their painting and say what they think, and they say "Well what do you think of it"? - I wouldn't feel that that was an especially helpful encounter, if I am honest. I KNOW what I think of the painting.

I also seriously doubt that if, rather than saying to a child, "oh I like the way you've coloured the sky blue, what made you decide to do that" you say "what made you decide to colour the sky blue", they will take from that "I am not loved unless I paint the sky blue".

The OTHER thing of course is that this kind of presupposes that you are the only significant influence in your child's life, and what you say makes or breaks them. Now in my case this isn't true. Thus far Fillyboy has shown his spaceship to me, his sister ("happy happy!"), his dad, the next door neighbour and her daughter, and has rolled it up to show his grandparents. And EVERYONE picked up on something different, and EVERYONE praised him. I am thinking from this he has probably learnt a fair bit about what different people like in pictures, and by implication, what they don't.

agree filly, and in addition it also seems to suppose that the whole of Fillyboy's sense of self worth is tied up in this one picture.

I'm very much anti pointless praise.....particularly when you get to the secondary level at school. But I don't think that your child's emotional wellbeing is going to colapse like a house of cards over one type of positive responce.

have worked out my fundemental problem i think

If you selectively pick up on bits of the picture-that IS praise, in effect. You are syaing "gosh, THAT caught my eye"

you can't get around it, as humans, we make value judgements every time we talk to people. I actually think that this is more a question of how do you phrase it, which is really something to tailor to individual kids.

also have noticed kohn doesn't talk about parents looking after themselves. if you have young kids i actually think to not give yourself some space and time (incl saying to kids "no, I can't do that, I need some time alone" is actually a bit irresponsible.

Have you read Smart Love Filly, which is supposed to be a more practical version of Alfie Kohn? (Personally it did my head in, I started talking like a machine and felt very inadequate, but that might just be me )

The DDs are mostly "raised by wolves", which is clearly bad. However, I sometimes wonder whether being "raised by exemplary child psychologists" would be even worse. It may be a reflection of my own rather rumbustious childhood, but the AK world comes across as rather controlled, quiet and colourless. Delight, exasperation, pride, anger, a smidgen of unpredictability and a sudden lapse into shouts of laughter on the realisation that your last phrase sounds just like your mother, aren't these all part of the essential humanity of parents?

moondog I would love to read your criticism....

I tend to agree Issy. Also think that a proper understanding of behviourism (I don't mean star charts, I mean a proper understanding of reinforcement) would get people further........

thats the thing, isn't it?

parents ARE human

kids learn from being raised by humans

I do know a couple of kids who are AK'd and am not especially overwhelmed if i am honest. But I prob shouldn't say that as I am 90% sure that there are people who know who i am in RL.

gess he is questioning whether one should want to be "getting people further" in the conventional sense. He is looking at the whole notion of what we want kids to be. in that i am with him. I am not after, for my kids, more efficient parenting really.

I read this recently too, and while some of it was making me think "YES!" some concepts I felt quite hard to grasp - mainly the praise thing like you Filly.

The book was great for the reinforcing the overall attitude I think we should have towards children - but tbh, whenever AK was explaining the faults in some of the methods of manipulation used by parents, I was thinking, "but there's no way I would do that anyway!"

It's an interesting point you make about parents getting a break Filly. I consider ds in everything I do, but just sometimes, sorry the answer is NO, I cannot do this for you now and that's it! I think AK does realise this, he said that of course there will be non-negotiable things, but it makes life easier for you if they are kept to a minimum.

You know I think I falter quite a bit after reading a book like this, I have the 'rules' in my head which sometimes conflict with what I am doing. But let's face it, we can get guidance from many sources, some of which may be portraying a perceived ideal, but I don't think going by ANY book 100% is ideal either. I kind of came to the conclusion that the concepts which didn't make sense to me would not apply well in our situation anyway.

The book did make me revisit my childhood quite a bit; I think children are often treated with little respect because they are thought of as lesser beings, or that they won't remember. I can still remember certain things that were said to me as a child, and THAT is a big influence on how I try to treat ds (not always easy though.)

Thats the thing isn't it fillyjonk - you can learn quite a bit from different theories, but at some point your children have to interact with other people who haven't read the book - this is going to be easier IMO if you haven't been been brought up by 'perfect' parents.

That's what I meant fillyjonk- I meant getting further in terms of having a happier household and well rounded, happy balanced kids. I have a child with severe learning difficulties; the last thing I'm remotely bothered by is getting further in any sort of conventional sense. Grown up children capable of looking after themselves, caring for others, and happy with their choices (and cappable of making choices) will do me fine.

I think with a good understanding of reinforcement you can have a happy well balanced household, without having to extend lots of effort on different schemes.

I'm fairly certain that moondog will know exactly what I mean.

Interesting about behaviourism. On my psych course there does seem to be an underlying assumption that behaviourism is a bad thing. Certainly among the students anyway (shouldn't tar the staff with the same brush) .

I did a thing on different perspectives and how they are represented in education, and it was interesting. I felt very differently about behaviourism when I had finished.

Haven't read Alfie Kohn .

Should I?

I think the problem really flying machine is that people think behaviourism = stickers & rewards. They don't understand it can be about tones of voice, smiling & really often just thinking ahead.

We use it in a very obvious form to teach ds1 "do this" (eg clp hands) he does, he gets rewarded; and its resulted in learning imitation and signing and all sorts of things. It's an excellent teaching tool. And understanding why he's behaving in a certain way (which is a big part of behaviourism) is essential to dealing with challenging behaviours.

I use it in a much subtler form with ds2 & ds3- never used a sticker chart in my life- really just use it to understand what is reinforcing them, why they are behaving in the way they are & how to react so that everyone stays stress free & happy and the things that need doing get done. Of course its not always that simple, but I think a thorough understanding of reinforcement helps to keep relations on an even keel, and helps to ensure that everyone's needs are met.

Agree about the stickers. Also the problem was that the main example given in the course text was of course Little Albert - and pretty much that was it. There was an element of "well, that's what people used to think, now let's get onto the sensible stuff... ".

Do you use ABA with your ds1?

Message withdrawn

Yep mean- ABA/VB type approach. It taught ds1 imitation (finally aged 7) & from there all sorts of things have become possible. He incidentally loves it as a teaching technique. It's very fast paced the way we do it, and if one of his tutors isnt in he drags me to the therapy room. Apparently today he has been shrieking with laughter at everything. Have been using it on challenging behaviours etc for a long long time. TBH I think that's incredibly useful- learning how to analyse behaviours and our responses - that's the main application I use for ds2 and ds3 really. School use a mixed approach.

Danae- I've been on a lot of courses (with SN in mind) and just applied that to ds2 and ds3 when relevant, especially the bits about looking at our response to behaviour. It's really a case of understanding reinforcement, and the best book for that is probably karen Pryor "Don't shoot the dog"!!!