Reaching the end of my tether with ds and am reluctantly asking for advice

[Rhubarb]

He's 3.5. Potty training started when he was 2.8 but he didn't get the hang of it, so after 2 weeks of cold turkey with no signs of improvement we gave up. Then about 3 months ago we tried again. After a couple of weeks the accidents got less and he finally started peeing on the potty!

Now he is wee trained but the problem is the poo.

He doesn't tell us when he needs a poo, neither does he tell us when he's done one in his pants. His poos are very soft so by the time we realise what he's done, it's soaked through his clothes and anything he has sat on.

At nursery they don't have good drains so when he has an accident, they just put his undies in a nappy bag and by the time I get to them, they are beyond saving and need to be thrown away. Last week I threw away 6 pairs of undies within 4 days.

We've tried the nice "never mind!" approach, but this hasn't worked. He obviously knows he has done one in his pants but he never even pauses in his play.

Any advice? I'm fed up of rinsing poo!

Rhubarb, you've got all my sympathy as we're in the same boat (and have been for well over a year!).

Like yours, my ds's poos are really soft (I put it down to him eating lots fruit/veg) and he just doesn't seem to get any warning. Also, once he feels it coming he doesn't think he's going to get to the toilet in time so he won't move - just stands with his bum cheeks squeezed together trying to stop it. Doesn't work of course!

We've tried everything we can think of, rewards, sanctions, ignoring it, making a fuss. Nothing made any difference and eventually we've just conceeded that he'll get it eventually and just take each day as it comes.

He's now 4.6 and has had a few successes recently & even taken himself to the toilet to "try for a poo" a couple of times. The motivating factor seems to be that he's got to an age where he now gets embarassed if any of his friends notice that he's had an accident (they were all trained by 2y so you can imagine that it's seemed a long time for us!)

Anyway, this is my advice..

• get special book for them to sit on the toilet/potty with (we have where's Wally) and they have to sit for at least 5 mins
• Make sure they're drinking enough. We have trouble getting ds to drink & I've read that this can cause problems for the bowel to read the signals that it needs to poo,
• clean them up in the shower after an accident - saves on wipes and you can wash the pants out too,

Good Luck to you!!

Thanks, that's good advice. I appreciate that.

dh does the shower bit but ds sees it as a punishment. Which, the way dh does it, is true. ds HATES the shower, but like you said, sometimes it's the only way to clean him up properly.

Bit pissed off with nursery not rinsing them. They claim the drains aren't good enough so they just stuff them in a nappy bag and honestly, by the time I've got them they are beyond repair, they really are.

Could they run a bit of water into the nappy bag on top of the pants so they stayed soggy until they get home? They would probably have to double bag them to stop leaks but you might be able to salvage the pants then.

(apart from white pants which I always have to chuck! Any ideas where I can get packs of just black pants?)

But the other day my sink got clogged with poo from my trying to rescue a pair, I had to unclog it with my fingers and trust me, I ain't squeamish but I nearly gagged then!

My ds wasn't reliable until four - and even now at five and half has night nappies and has accidents first thing. God, I've lost my rag before now, and find washing pooey pants just so, so depressing. Completely sympathise, but I do think with some boys they just take a lot longer. I don't think my ds had enough physical sensitivity to really know. Apart from mornings (when he is in pull ups) we are fine these days. Though he is too scared to go to teh loo alone, which is tiresome.

Rhubarb - we've had exactly the same with ds (4.5) and he still has good weeks and bad weeks.

If he eats too much fruit - esp apples - then everything is explosive/runny. Even if he gets there 'in time", there are usually huge skids.

Don't know how you feel about rewards etc, but we're still using a marble jar for ds which is a great visual reminder. he will leave it too long most times and when there are accidents his most recent ploy is to scrape it into the loo himself and hope no one has noticed

Anyway, we have a small glass jar and lot of marbles. He gets one for every successful trip - no dribbles, no skids and 2 for dry nights. The reward (usually a car from Cars - he chooses) sits next to the jar above the toilet waiting to be claimed. A marble is removed without fuss and just a short explanation when there is an accident.

Although he still has bad times, starting the consequence thing has made him realise that he can't get away with it and it is unacceptable.

Sometimes it's quite obvious he's got a funny tummy so we'll go easy, but when it's sheer laziness and he's aware that this is Bad.

He's only been wee trained since just before he turned 4 and is fine in the main. But poos still get the better of him from time to time.

Thanks Aloha.

Don't forget, if you are doing any features involving freebies - I'm your woman!

Oh and bobsmum, thanks!

We give him money for his digger moneybox when he does a wee or poo on the toilet. He can buy something with it when it gets full. We've told him he gets double for poos.

Rhubarb, to rinse them you could initially hold them under the flush of the toilet, to get the worst of the poo off?

this is what a lot of cloth nappy users do so you may find it works for pants as well

My DS2 had poo accidents pretty regularly throughout reception. He's now 6 and is more or less ok, although he's still pretty skiddy.

The things I found helped were:

buy cheap undies from somewhere like Asda and throw them out when you need to.

DS2 responded well to star charts.

Make sure there is time in the morning to sit him on the loo, perhaps with a book and just let him take his time. Apparently at this time of day the digestion is at a great stage for pooing (or something like that - my FiL (doctor) was more articulate about it!). DS2s main problem now is that he holds it in and bits escape.

You really do have my sympathy. It's so horrible isn't it? And when the smell or stains go through to their clothes...I was worried for ages that DS2 would be known for the rest of his life as The Stinky Kid.

Loads of sympathy from me too Rhubarb. We have been potty training since just after Easter and although we're down to one or two wee accidents a week, hardly any of the poos are done in the loo. Sometimes I cope with it and do all the things you're supposed to, and sometimes I just want to use a cattle prod on him everytime he poos in his pants, and never mind about the complexes he'll have as an adult.

I think that he genuinely doesn't realise the poo is coming. He's always poo-ed easily, he doesn't go red in the face or scrunch his eyes up or even stop what he's doing. When we put him on the loo he gets all tense about it, making it harder for him to poo I think. We always rush him to the loo if he farts, where he will have a whinging fit or a bout of piteous crying until we let him get off. 10 mins later he will poo in his pants. It really grinds me down.

If you have an Asda, or similar cheapie clothes place, nearby then keep an eye out for special offers. I bought a pack of 7 pants with an offer price of £2, when I got to the till they rang up as 50p so I went back and got another 4 packs. I really don't care about throwing them away at that price.

He's only just turned 3, I have no idea what I'll do if he's still like this at 4 or more, especially as he has to be toilet trained to go to school in January.

Thanks for the responses.

I bought some really cheap undies at Asda today that I can throw away. I was looking for nappy liners too but they don't sell them.

I've been asked by his nursery not to put him in training pants because he is not long wee trained and they feel this might encourage him to just do it in his pants and set him back even further.

It does go through his pants too if if's left there for a while, i.e. until we notice the smell or brown patch on the sofa, and it really is grim trying to scrape it all off, rinse it, wash round the sink, disinfect everything etc. Dh loses his rag with him quite a lot so I usually get the job of dealing with it as I'm more patient, I just grind my teeth!

I'll see what his HV says on Wed too. In the meantime I'm cutting all citrus from his diet to see if this makes a difference, not that he had much, but anyway he won't have any now!

oh, the other thing that helps me is a big box of latex gloves and lots of baby wipes...

If it's gooey then don't bother trying to take the pants off, just lie him down, cut them at the hip on both sides and then clean him up as though it was a nappy. I've found pulling them down just makes a horrible mess with poo everywhere.

If you're really bothered by the poo stains (and I know I would be) then you could use plastic pants outside his usual pants. Fortunately I haven't had that problem so much as ds seems to only poo standing up and we can usually smell it straight away.

If it's gooey then don't bother trying to take the pants off, just lie him down, cut them at the hip on both sides and then clean him up as though it was a nappy. I've found pulling them down just makes a horrible mess with poo everywhere.

If you're really bothered by the poo stains (and I know I would be) then you could use plastic pants outside his usual pants. Fortunately I haven't had that problem so much as ds seems to only poo standing up and we can usually smell it straight away.

bambino mio make reusable training pants they are like normal pants but have a plastic liner inbuilt. it doesn't save you having to wash pooey nappies but it may save your furniture at home. They are not like nappy training pants as they feel really wet like pants. Bissell also do a really good carpet and upholstery cleaner called oxy something but its a spray and comes in a dounble silver can. Its about £10 but lasts for ages and got poo out of my sofa, sick out of the carpet and all the smell. My DB does v runny poos too, with no outward sign and honestly untill I told him that when the farting comes he must go to the loo did he get the whole poo thing. I think the nursery should at least flush the pants down the loo, but don't let go as DH did at the weekend by mistake.

Thanks. No accidents today! But no poo either, he's saving it bless!

I've removed all citrus from his diet. I also bought very cheap undies only I just realised that I got 7-8yos! Hope they take them back!

We have a throw on our sofa that I just stick in the washing machine, as for the carpet, well it's not ours as we're renting, so I do spray Vanish and Febreze on it, but it's one of those horrible carpets that stain if you so much as look at them!

I'm telling nursery to just chuck the pants.

good for you ! And well if the carpet is one of those your DS is probably improving it. Try to get DH to stay calm hard I know but when I lose it after an accident DS alsmost regresses.

Don't have an awful lot to add here, but a possible suggestion. If you used pocket nappies without any stuffing, they might still feel like pants? They're pretty thin, but have a waterproof-ish layer, and also have poppers at the side which would make taking them off a lot easier. they're expensive compared to pants though, but you could probably get second hand ones on thenappylady.co.uk.
Or, I found seven and ten packs of pants in primark for a pound or two each.

You could try this approach for increasing his awareness. Its a well researched techniques and used by psychologists with children who are soiling long after they should be dry/clean. The majorly important point is that the whole family have to give it a go and that the shame/punishment/humiliation element of accidents is totally removed. This doesn't mena you have to be thrilled with an accident just non-emotional, very matter of fact.
You tell ds a story about a character called 'Sneaky Poo'. Sneaky Poo is always trying to sneak into childrens pants. He creeps up on them and takes them by suprise. You can add in a few examples where Sneaky Poo has snuck up on ds recently. The more exaggerated fun emotion of the sneakyness of Sneaky Poo the better when you tell the story. The aim is to get ds interested and on board. Then you explain that ds and all the rest of the family have to get rid of Sneaky Poo by putting him the toilet. E.g. One day SP was hiding watching 'Ben' playing with his trains. Ben didn't notice but SP was creeping up behind him, closer and closer, until suddenly Sp was nearly in bens trousers!(indignant emotion) Just then ben realised what was happening, quickly he ran to the toilet and pulled down his pants! SP didn't know what was happening and before you know it he had fallen into the toilet!!! etc.. etc... Get ds to do a lovely picture of SP with his crayons/pens etc. Then another picture of SP in the toilet, being flushed away by all the water.

Then you have to start working on a toileting programme. Introduce some routine to ds day. At breakfast time he should have a warm drnk to get bowels moving and then sit on the toilet for 5-10 minutes. After a warm bath is another good time. This is a good time to talk about SP and other stories that ds likes. If no poo thats ok but you have to keep taking him back to the loo every half an hour as far as possible. If DS 'gets SP in the toilet' this is an ocassion for lots of cheering and whooping as you flush SP away. If SP gets into DSs pants then he has to help tidy up - not as punishment, just as a job that has to be done when SP s in pants.
Idea is that pooing in toilet is fun! Pooing in pants is just boring. HTH

That's great advice, I'll show that to dh, thanks so much, I'll let you know what happens.

Rhubarb, I'm having the same problem as you

Just written this on another thread, but it's relevant here too I think, so hope you don't mind me repeating it:

My ds2 is 3 and still doesn't have completely firm motions. They have got firmer since I cut back on the brown(ish) bread (well, we make it ourselves - has about 70% white flour and 30% brown) - have since discovered that kids don't cope with too much fibre in their diet (and bread is a MAJOR part of his diet).

It's fairly common - apparently low fat, high fibre, lots of squash - these can all aggravate the problem.

But also, it's perfectly normal for some kids to have a fast throughput which makes it runnier. According to our GP, the water is only removed in the bowel right at the last moment while you're "holding it in" until you're ready to go to the loo. If they don't hold it in and it just gets released on arrival, then it gets expelled with most of the liquid intact.