Would someone like to have an objective debate on attachment parenting vs. Ford?!

[ljhooray]

Hi everyone,
I know there are lots of passionate supporters of attachment parenting just as there are passionate supporters of very routine based parenting (i.e. Gina Ford). As Mumsnet knows well, its easy to find debate on Ford, but what I've been totally unable to find is a proper debate on Attachment Parenting. Having read Dr. Sears and others, I would find it difficult to follow what in a way is also a very strict approach. Although its the exact opposite of Ford, I feel it also puts lots of pressure on the family.

Please please please, can we find a middle ground somewhere? I think that's what I'm trying with my lovely daughter Sophie. We occassionally dip into Rachel Waddilove's Baby Book and Penelope Leach You and Your Child and although things feel right for us< i would love to get some thoughts from others.

I hear what krang is saying. And it is really quite sad, isn't it.
On the other hand - don't you think that it happens naturally.
Depending on your upbringing, your personality, what kind of child is born ... you choose / are forced into doing certain things.

And if you agree with / diasgree with breastfeeding / co-sleeping - using re-useables, organic food - or whatever the topic - you thus, post on those topics - you eventually find like minded people.
I suppose it is natural.If you are extremely child orientated or alternatively very very strict, in the end others will remember / categorise you as such.

DaddyJ - which thread ?

There is only one, Oblomov!
In the chat section..

Suggesting that some African tribe makes all their children leave home and fend for themselves at the age of three is a little harsh. Its totally and utter slanderous.

This is some information about the Ik Tribe.

platform.blogs.com/passionofthepresent/2005/09/ik tribemainta.html

They seem to be victims of religous percution, famine and war. I doult that these people are stupid and there are probably lots of things we could learn from them as well as them learning from us.

I think its wrong for us to think that some obscure tribe in Africa, South America or Asia is better or worst than us. People in the west have habit of thinking that a different way of life is primative or inferior. For example many African, South American or Asian countries are refered to as the third world. (As if they are somehow third class)

Seriously, Oblomov, I thought I was pretty clued up but...ginger???

DaddyJ - you have cross posted - I am at a loss.

It is quite common for all moral values to break down when you have a group of people facing extreme starvation. This has happend in the Poland, North Korea.

www.gsreport.com/articles/art000017.html

Look at this website about the famine that Stalin diliberately caused in Poland.

www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide /stalin.htm

"While police and Communist Party officials remained quite well fed, desperate Ukrainians ate leaves off bushes and trees, killed dogs, cats, frogs, mice and birds then cooked them. Others, gone mad with hunger, resorted to cannibalism, with parents sometimes even eating their own children. "

Do you think that we should take all Polish children into care just because their ancestors were driven to desperation.

What has happened to the IK tribe is very similar to what to Poland between 1932 and 1933.

Oh sorry, still mulling over knowledge gleaned
from that other thread. Will stop that now!

Who are you arguing with, Frances? I don't think anyone has suggested that 'Western' child-rearing practices are superior to 'non-Western' practices? I thought the point put forward was that it is a false dichotomy to assume that there are Western and non-Western practices, and that the former are more removed from natural, instinctual approaches, and that the latter are just that - homogeneous and 'natural'.

DaddyJ - I have not posted anything about....ginger... are you talking -
being a redtop ?
all spice / nutmeg ?
something else altogether ?
I don't know what you are talking about.

I am replying to BabiesEverywhere post. The IK tribe have been affected by the tragic events in Darfur, Sudan. It is why they are straving to death

ROFL, Oblomov!!

Look at this thread (set up by waaayTMI so please don't be offended!)

Okay, Frances.. I'm afraid I don't have evidence in terms of links to the web, but I have some academic sources to back up my points, I find them more reliable anyway.

Research into the IK people were carried out By C Turnbull, "The nountain people" published in 1994. However, you can find a reference to it in Sociology for AS (AQA) by Stephen Moore et al page 34.

Can't give you the specific links to the other two, because the book is at work for one, and the otehr is from a video. Instead, how about this...?

The Lakker of Burma (Sociology in focus p234) is another tribe which does not consider the role of the mother to be significant after birth. Indeed, it is not wrong there for a mother to have sex with her child, as they believe that she is merely the container before giving birth.

In Tahiti (Same ref as above), girls are free to have girl and to pass them on to relatives for 'adoption' whilst they continue to lead free lives. They are not expected to raise their own children.

Basically, read any good sociological text book and you will find 101 different examples of non western families that do not fit the idealised myths that we think exist!

"Anthropologist Colin Turnbull (1972/1995) studied the Ik, a formerly proud nomadic people in northern Uganda whose traditional hunting lands were taken from them by the government. Devastated by drought, hunger, and starvation, the Ik turned to a form of extreme individualism in which selfishness, emotional numbness, and lack of concern for others reign supreme. The pursuit of food has become the only good, with society replaced by a passionless, numbed association of individuals."

not really sure what your point is BE....

Frances - ah, ok ,missed that post.

Already forgotten harpsi.
I will simplify ds meals - no more paella for him - back to baby rice, greggs , fruitshoots, and pot noodles, it is

And thats me I'm talking about

Aha, DaddyJ, so YOU are the evil advertising guru!

harpsi - touchy ? - yes
bitch ? -no

I just goggled and posted links which mentioned the tribes mentioned by rarrie on Tue 19-Jun-07 12:22:49....which I don't believe, a tribe would never survive wihtout helping out the younger generation.

Opps, click return to early.

The man who wrote the book watched them suffer for two years and did nothing !!! How could he do that

Daddy - I have been skiming - (no not rimming) , SKIMMING that thread, from afar and having alittle giggle to myself.

I wasn't sure if that was the one you were refering to or the style - bad tan post

Oblomov, bum thread has been enjoyable
but getting a bit buggered now
by so who has taken it the wrong way.
Ah well.

krang, a world without labels! Unthinkable

Being a parent is amusing, there is always someone
who will judge you.

We got stick for co-sleeping from one bunch of people in RL
and another bunch thinks dd being in a routine is
very disciplined of us.

Not sure if this has been mentioned but I think a lot of the decisions we make are based on our core philosophy/beliefs.

Broadly speaking, the reason I couldn't stomach the Baby Whisperer (although lots of her advice seems quite sensible) is that I don't agree with her 'babies should be independent from day one' principle. (I do think her advice is good for babies over 6 mths or so and certainly 'listened' to some of it). I thought it was quite sad when she mentioned telling someone they shouldn't let their baby sleep on her as it would lead to 'bad habits' - its one of those gorgeous rewarding moments with your baby, no?

Personally I believe babies need to maintain their bond with mum. Independence comes naturally and with gentle guidance when they show signs of needing it (My 14mth old is affectionate but beautifully independent). I have dipped into books but v glad I have followed my instincts - and (except at PMT moments) feel like the best mummy in the world, so there!!