Would someone like to have an objective debate on attachment parenting vs. Ford?!

[ljhooray]

Hi everyone,
I know there are lots of passionate supporters of attachment parenting just as there are passionate supporters of very routine based parenting (i.e. Gina Ford). As Mumsnet knows well, its easy to find debate on Ford, but what I've been totally unable to find is a proper debate on Attachment Parenting. Having read Dr. Sears and others, I would find it difficult to follow what in a way is also a very strict approach. Although its the exact opposite of Ford, I feel it also puts lots of pressure on the family.

Please please please, can we find a middle ground somewhere? I think that's what I'm trying with my lovely daughter Sophie. We occassionally dip into Rachel Waddilove's Baby Book and Penelope Leach You and Your Child and although things feel right for us< i would love to get some thoughts from others.

That's one of the best things about Mumsnet, Lulu - you get to read about hundreds of people's different experiences. I've not read any baby books but I've got a taste of loads of things from here, some of which I've followed up. It's a hodge podge of theories and methods all of which have been tested by real parents and babies so you're bound to find something that helps.

My mum's parenting advice was very much bound in the 1970s so she was a bit obsessed with giving water to a bf baby, 4 hourly feeds, sleeping in a cot/own room very early. It helped me to get other viewpoints on here as I didn't have many friends with children to give me other advice (and hv was a bit useless). MN gave me the confidence to cosleep when it helped us, wean later, continue bf when it all seemed to be going wrong.

My mum is highly suspicious of Internet forums but it's actually far more natural to be part of a community of people with young children, than fairly isolated as I was when ds was born. Far more helpful than a book that advocates only one idea.

stop reading parenting books for gods sake. kids like routine in general. but should they get fed at 4 ionstead of 3 or shuld you discover you have a social life that may coiincide with routine - then sod the routine occasionally

or those who breastfeed until the kid turns 16, lets the kid sleep in bed with them until they leae home and get a job, bought a biger bed becuase their 6 children all sleep with them and all still breastfeed. they homeschool and never have child out of sight.

children at the centre is ok - sometimes, but theres a on the whole thing to consider, and the childs needs don't always come first.

i thinkk gurus are a crock of shit.

Agree. A crock of shit is what gurus are.

I am very ignorant about AP. I have never looked at Dr Sears or any similar. But if Frances5's description is the basics :
"You can read all about baby carrying, cosleeping, extended breastfeeding, never letting your baby cry, letting the child wake every single hour for a breastfeed, not going back to work and no smacking "

Then I have to say that that is the very polar, of everything I believe.

I believe that the world is too child centred and that children need to know that they are not the centre of attention, that they are only one member of a family.

But this thread is bound to kick off , becasue the OP gets to the very heart of parenting - that there are two very different extremes that could never be reconcile - and then the rest of the mumsnett, in varying degrees, in the middle.

I quite liked Penelope Leach.

I've read quite a few parenting books, English, French and American. And looked at lots of friends and family bring up children. If there is one message I felt was really valuable, it was that each baby is different and each will develop happily along its own course providing you give it the opportunity to do so. Routines and external rules often get in the way of babies showing you what they are ready to do

Now far be it for me to stick up for the lovely Miss Ford. But an opinion on the routine side of parenting, if I may be permitted?

When dd was born we were told as first time parents that we would just 'know' what to do. Well we didn't. We asked for help, but everyone seemed to be backwards in coming forwards, perhaps not wanting to push their parenting methods onto us. All very well but we had a baby who slept most of the day and cried most of the night and we didn't know how much she should be feeding, or when, how much sleep she should have, or when. The HV said she would find her own routine, she did, it meant she slept most of the day! We mistakenly thought that if we kept her awake until about 11pm, that she would sleep for longer. Of course it didn't work like this but how were we to know?

Then we found Miss Ford's book. It seemed rather regimented but tbh, I longed for the 'safeness' of the hospital routine again, for some matronly woman to come and tell me what to do. So we started following the routines in the book.

Sure it had it's downsides. We daren't go anywhere during her afternoon nap for instance, in case she awoke. But later on we found that she'd sleep in her pram.

Within less than a week of following the routines, I had 2 hours to myself every afternoon and dd awoke only once during the night, after a couple more weeks she slept through.

We didn't leave her to cry during this time, she just seemed to slot right into the routines as if they were what she was waiting for all along!

Then with ds we tried again, but he was to prove more of a challenge. Not for him were routines! He wanted to feed and feed and feed and wake up 5 or 6 time in the night and feed some more!

But even though he struggled with the sleeping at night thing, he did go for the afternoon nap and believe me, having 2 hours to yourself every day is a Godsend!

Now that I am older and wiser I think you can take quite a lot of good advice from these books. It all depends on what kind of parent you are and what you want out of parenthood. I quite like routine for the kids, even now we enforce a routine for them and we find that it works for us. But some parents like to work in different ways so they would choose different parenting books.

All of these books are handy if you are stuck and have no-one else to turn to. But you have to choose the right one for you. I would never slag off one book for a new parent because you never know, that book could save their lives! Well, their sanity anyway. Just because one book didn't work for you doesn't mean to say it won't work for everyone.

So why people can't just leave it at that I really don't know!

And may I just refute what people say about babies knowing what is best for them. I breastfed ds until he was 8 months old and I was advised to stop because I was getting extremely ill. He fed and fed and fed and I was only 8 stone and shrinking rapidly whilst he grew into a big bouncy baby. I was exhausted doing around 5 night feeds and all the daytime feeds too.

Yet I had to do what was best for baby right?

No, my health was beginning to suffer which affected my children no doubt. I put him onto formula and he cut down on his night feeds right away, waking only once or twice. He would also go longer during the day.

So follow your own instincts as a mother and do what is best for you as well as your baby.

Rhubarb - but don't mothers and babies fall into a routine that suits them?

I certainly never tried to make my baby do anything at all. But we quickly fell into a routine of her having a massive sleep in the middle of the day (so I had lunch in peace and a quiet time at the beginning of the afternoon) and a quick nap in the early evening. It just happened.

And these days she goes to bed at the same time as us and gets up at more or less the same time too. It's not anarchy and no-one decided it was going to happen - we just reached a mutual tacit agreement

I agree with many here already. I coul never go with just one extreme. Instead I take the bits that sit me and my DD best from each style and worked my way to somewhere in the middle.

So, we co-slept much of the time, and DD learnt that routines were made for breaking should it mean we wanted to go our or do something. DD's naps and sleep fit in with what we were doing and where we were, naps often taken in the car or in her pram whilst we were out. We fed on demand most of the time, but after weaning started to settle into a flexible routine for meal times.

I did find Ford's potty training manual useful when DD decide it was time to go down that road. But again, I took what I needed from it and discarded the rest. I was more flexible than Ford would advocate.

never read a parenting book in my life and don't plan to start now. If I'm not sure what to do in certina circumstances then I ask mym mum, a few friends even MN and I try whichever of the suggestions seems most sensible and then keep trying until something does work.

Has worked so far in all situations - that way I get every parenting style available without paying good money!

No they don't.

You might have done and your friends might have done, but not all mothers, no. I did not have a maternal bone in my body and didn't have the first clue what to do with dd. Tbh I got fed up of people telling me that we would sort out our own routine - it never happened! Perhaps I missed the clues or something but for us it just wasn't there.

Like I said, some parents need a little support and help and if that is what these books provide then I'm all for them.

And some parents have no-one to ask.

Oh... potty training .

My daughter refused to wear anything but pants - no nappy since Saturday morning. She won't go near the loo/potty. She can't manage to tell me before she needs to wee or poo.

Any ideas?

i think these things are very personal

i felt that Penelope Leach was fantastic to give me confidence, i read widely and mostly work along the principles of AP but i find it hard to follow anything to the letter (even cake recipes)

i don't like preaching but i do like empowering parents to do what suits them and their child.

so i do extended BF, co sleeping, do not have fixed times for naps, have consistent bedtime routine but not bedtime iyswim we are happy with this

whatever makes it easier for you

Routine is not all bad. And you don't have to be a GF'er to support some idea of routine.
That goes to show how the whole Gf thing has coloured our judgement.
My midwife, as many do, said make sure you are feeding every 3-4 hours - her only piece of advice.
Millions agree with a bath and bedtime routine.
I had read the GF book. Taken on some of the basic ideas. Was far from rigid.
Do not consider myself an Gf supporter, in any way, as such.
I, and ds, clearly like routine - he put himself in his own routine within days - and then I could set my clock by him - yet he was totally flexible - he fed at 6pm:10pm:2am:6am - regular as clockwork and slept through at 13 weeks- and that nothing to do with me or GF or anyone else - I was just lucky.
I like Scootergrrl, liked Tracy Hogg.
You can't compare routine and Ap - you can take bits from both, but comapre - no.

I was all set to be the ultimate 'attachment parent' until my baby developed colic. I hot footed it to the nearest book shop and bought every parenting book known to man. Gina Ford is spot on with naps, her weaning advice is good too. Tracy Hogg got me through those awful 'colic' days.

Isnt freedom of speech wonderful

I agree with Rhubarb that not all parents and babies fall into a natural routine. My DS certainly didn't, and his total lack of anything even resembling a natural routine did not help my PND.

I also agree with everyone here who has pointed out that whatever works for you and your baby is fine. I found Gina Ford's routines very useful and DS really took to them. I did try co-sleeping but neither me or DS liked it - we both like our own space!

Like, I suspect, the majority of people, I take what bits I find useful from parenting books and ignore anything I don't agree with. I don't think it's helpful to have a debate about 'which method is best' because everyone is so different. I'm very routine-based but I know people who co-sleep and have no fixed routine and their babies are just as happy and healthy as mine. The simple answer is always 'whatever is best for you and your baby'. Sure, we can all pull stats from Google or whatever, but that's never us or our babies in the lab, is it?

Funny, but whenever I'm with my friends we never 'debate' parenting methods. We all just get on with it and if someone asks for advice they get it - but nobody I know is 100 per cent any parenting method.

If things feel right for you, OP, then you are doing it right.

Best advice I ever had was "listen to everyone and then ignore them all and do your own thing".

and of course just as you have sorted an approach which works the little critters up and change their mind, just to keep you on your toes.

Agree with Rhubarb.

Whilst pregnant I had completely ridiculous ideas of me and angelic newborn wafting around with beatific smiles on our faces.

In reality I was isolated from family, shocked by the whole experience and had baby that screamed all day.

I didn't want to do 'routine', I wanted to waft. I thought instinct would be enough.

After 5 months of exhaustion and desperation I read Cina Ford. Binned all the feeding advice, followed the daytime nap advice. Lo and behold, a degree of beatific wafting returned to my life.

I used GF with dd2, and did attachment parenting with dd1. Neither method was based on any strong beliefs on what I thought I should do. The reasons being were a) their personalities (dd1 was nightmare colic baby, dd2 laid back and v much loves her routine - loves her cot etc) and b) what was practical for me at the time... I could spend hours with dd1 in my arms and sleeping with her when whe slept etc, but with dd2 as a newborn and dd1 as an attention needing 19 mth old I simply found attachment parenting too much (also had severe SPD and was crutch reliant for weeks after dd2's birth).

So, I would say just do whatever feels right for you and your child. If you want routine and order, work towards it. If you want to co-sleep and carry your baby all day, then just do it! I really don't think there's a one-size-fits-all approach to this and it defo depends on you and your child. What's important is that you are happy and true to yourself. IMO it really is as simple as that.

The Baby Whisperer (Tracey Hogg) seems to advocate the middle ground somewhat and I found her advice invaluable. Having said that I really did feel like I didn't have a clue - the only advice I got was to "follow my instincts" which is actually very good advice but I really didn't have any natural instinct at all..

Message withdrawn

And just because you start on one line of parenting....doesn't mean you can't convert -ds was an easy baby - I have got my come-uppence now - at 3.5 he drives me to distraction and no parenting gurus could help me on this one- besides we all bring our own 'baggage' - unconsciously.