What can we do to prevent our Sons growing up into a manchild? Or is it inevitable?

[HollidayArmadillo]

I literally do not know a single person in a relationship who doesn't agree that they have to basically coach the man through life
Has to be told very specifically and clearly how to do things and that things need doing in the first place, wants a parade every time they do something round the house
Are generally largely useless at housework and childcare
Shows zero initiative in this area of life whatsoever
And don't even get me started on the mental load

Every single woman I ever talk to has the same issues, and we see thread after thread on here about it

Why is this happening?? Why do we as a society accept it?
And most importantly what specifically can we do with our Sons now to prevent it happening in the future?

Or do you think no matter how capable they are the minute they move in with a woman and procreate that they will become a manchild as that's what society expects?

I have to say my DH is pretty great on the whole, we have a 6 month old and he has taken on 50% of the responsibilities. Not quite sure how I'd have got through it without him. Neither of us had a clue about babies so we're learning together.
He also does most of the cooking and we'll do a food shop together and each get bits of we've forgotten.
He's rubbish with cleaning but we just have different standards of how we want the house to be.
I deal with all the bills, banks, utilities etc but he does all the practical jobs.

That being said I've had exes who are useless man children even though they were brought up to look after themselves and not be lazy.

For the record our son will not be a child forever and heaven help him if he expects a woman to look after him 😂

It is happening because their partners allow it to
Really? Men are lazy because women give them permission? Men are lazy because of all sorts of reasons, including some of the following
They see it as someone else's problem
They think that 'someone else' is less important than they are.
They don't love their partner and are using her for the housework / child rearing
They lack empathy the to think that their partner might want a rest.
They cba.
They know that someone else will pick up their slack.
There isn't much admiration to be had for cleaning the bathroom / kitchen, so they'd rather build some furniture / decorate a room / cook a meal.

To be fair, I'm female and ive done the last one. If I'm having a bad time I quite enjoye a couple of days shut in a room with a roller while DH wrangles, dresses and feeds children (mine are now old enough to dress and feed themselves but need an adult to wash the clothes/ prepare the food). And then you get admiration for the painting. I know I'm skiving, I'm fairly sure DH does, but he knows fine we'll it is my turn!

Oh, I forgot the different standards. My dad is the unicorn tears man who has higher standards than my mum. I've therefore grown up thinking that the house should be immaculate, and the bloke should make it that way, despite being the major breadwinner. Sadly DH didn't get that memo, so we have 2 standards, the immaculate standard in my head, and the normal one we both actually manage.

We need to lead by example where possible, but if you have a lazy DH then you need to demonstrate to your DC that this behaviour is not acceptable, both DDs and DSs.

DH is the best cook and will spend many happy hours in the kitchen. He also quite capable of cleaning up after himself and doing the food shopping.

We do tend to split jobs, so I am mainly responsible for cleaning and laundry, but DH will pitch in. He does tend to ask what load to put on re laundry, but that is because he knows I have a sort of system, but if he notices the ironing pile is growing he will do some, without complaint.

He has also been very involved with childcare, probably did more nappies than me, mainly because he is not squeamish and doesn't have a sense of smell. Which also helps with sickness and scrapes.

Both sets of parents were surprised by how much DH was involved with housework and then childcare when DS arrived on the scene, as they were very much of the opinion that there was man's work and woman's work (although MIL had taught DH how to cook before he went to university). But they learnt to accept what we did, and my DM has admitted to me that she wished my DF had been more involved.

Hopefully, this has given a good example to DS. DS is also responsible for putting his dirty laundry in the wash basket and put away his clean clothes. He also helps in the kitchen.

I would be ashamed of DS if he expects any future partner to do all the housework/childcare etc.

I would hope that society nowadays does not expect him to become a manchild.

Treat your DS like sh*t he will leave and become a man for himself at 16 and be very self sufficient like my DH

I currently do everything round the house as on mat leave, it feels like an unspoken thing that I should attend to all the housework, cooking, laundry etc. Maybe that's a burden I take on myself so I can people please like I have been conditioned to?! I hadn't thought about me facilitating it, sounds naive when you say it out loud but it's true. I do think there is something in the fact financial demands mean most mothers now have to work as well as run the house, and perhaps the dynamic of male/female relationships hasn't caught up with that. There was some article recently about how untenable it is for working mothers to carry the weight of work, child rearing and housework along with mental load. I have a baby son and will endeavor to get him to cooking/helping round house from a young age. With DP I have to admit feel I have made a rod for my own back. He is very capable and far from helpless, but if someone else is going to do something for you you take it don't you. Kind of an unpleasant truth.

I could never train my 2 Ds about housework. The unmarried one is still bone idle. The married Ds, however, has been well trained by his DW. He cooked a full Sunday roast for 8 on Sunday, and cleared up afterwards. He Hoovers, changes nappies, plays with the DC, baths them, and works full time. I'm so proud of him, and it's all down to my DDIL.

 they learn by example. Why is it the mother's job to teach sons??

I married an independent capable man - he does most of the cooking and his share of the housework. My brother is the same and my son who is at uni is also independent and does his own chores.

All I can do is hope that my plans for DS (but also DD) result in a well-adjusted, able, capable, independent young man.

I feel confident as

a) his dad does as near as dammit to 50% housework and cooking, sometimes more

b) as soon as DS is able to he will be made to do his chores as his (older) sister is starting to.

Having been out with a suite of manchildren (married one once) I feel fortunate in that I’ve lived all the things I don’t want DS to think is ever acceptable to shirk/avoid by virtue of the fact he has a willy.

My my experience it's the spoilt ones! Never had to do anything for themselves ever. My OH had never had to make himself a slice of toast!
Mums actually need to show lads how to cook and how to use a washing machine!!!

My DP (male) does 99% of food shopping and cooking, I (female) do laundry and DIY.
My brother lives alone and manages cooking, cleaning, laundry (although money management entirely different issue).
#HolidayArmadillo: remember these threads are to an extent self-selecting. If you want to complain that your man is incapable of carrying the mental load you will get lots of women who agree. It might only be when you ask about men who are good at these things that people comment on the other side of things.

The thing is, surely a decent man can realise that he should be pulling his weight even if that’s not the example that he grew up with? FIL didn’t lift a finger in their house, despite MIL also working full time. Now they’re both retired FIL spends his days playing golf while MIL does all the housework/cooking etc.
DH is intelligent enough to realise that this isn’t fair and his mum got a shit deal. He has made sure that he has broken the pattern so to speak, and he respects me enough that he wouldn’t treat me like a skivvy.

@coocoocachoo2017 my male DP still does all food shopping and most of the cooking even now that I am on maternity leave. I never offered to take on any of his usual responsibilities and he has not asked me to, he has also started walking the dog on week nights which takes a big responsibility from me. He acknowledges that looking after baby is a big obstacle to getting other things done!

I think women see themselves as victims instead of taking control. Refuse to accept a manchild! If they change then great you have a husband. If they don't then don't stay with them. It's simple. It's easier on your own than with a man child.

@auraaura spot on

I think both parents have to role model how they want their children (of either sex) to behave, it’s not just a case of the mother teaching them what they should know. Skills like cooking and using a washing machine can be taught but the habit of who does what is observed and becomes ingrained.
I do think there’s a difficulty when someone grows up in one type of household then lives in another.
My MIL was a SAHM following the birth of her 2nd child and the family also had a cleaner. So MIL took on the running of the house as many SAHP do, especially with school aged children, which is perfectly fine for them as a family. However, it meant that DH never had to lift a finger round the house and never saw his father do so either and what’s more genuinely had no idea what was needed to keep things running. He stayed afloat at uni but being responsible for feeding yourself is different to having to provide varied and nutritious family meals for example. We both work full time and have a young DS and he is good at some household admin - things he’s needed to do for himself since leaving home and have clear timelines like sorting out car tax, insurance, MOT etc. He will put a wash on or do the shopping if I ask him to but he never thinks - hmm... what are we going to have for dinner this week and when are we going to buy the ingredients, he just assumes there is food in the freezer if not in the fridge. He does do DIY and various other things so the workload isn’t totally out of whack but he honestly wouldn’t think to do the washing up that didn’t fit in the dishwasher because growing up the magic fairies (ie MIL and the cleaner) took care of it. Sure he can wash up, it’s not a challenging skill and he didn’t live off paper plates when he was single but it simply doesn’t occur to him that if he doesn’t do it, someone else has to and that someone else these days also works full time.

I have 3DC, DD12, DS10, DD7. DH and I try to model an equal relationship and encourage the kids to think of the house/family as a 'team effort' in which we all do our bit so we can all do the things we all want to do. We encourage the kids to learn useful tasks - so they can all operate the dishwasher and washing machine, cook simple meals and snacks, make a cup of tea, prepare veg/salad. With more supervision they do proper cooking, chop logs, do gardening, tidy the 'washing monster' - pile of doom in spare room - and take most of the responsibility for organising their own homework, school bags, clothes, music practice etc. I still issue a lot of reminders but on the whole they are pretty good. Activities like Scouts that encourage independence and learning new skills are good for reinforcing this - they do outdoor cooking, expeditions, camping etc. Mine are obviously too young to know what they'll be like in future but hopefully we are laying the groundwork for them to be functional adults. Simple things like encouraging the DC to sort out their own lifts if we can't take them somewhere (ie, they have to speak to an unrelated adult about it!), or go to the corner shop on their own, and ask if they can't find or reach the thing they need, helps give them confidence that they can 'do what needs doing'. Also we reward participation in domestic chores - we often blitz the house all together so we can have a pizza in front of a film later, or spend a couple of hours working in the garden before going to the pub for tea.

One thing I have found is that if you are very specific about what needs doing, children find it easier to complete a task. So don't just ask them to 'tidy up' - explain what that means and give them a checklist: put books back on shelf, put washing in basket, fold up towels, put away clean clothes, tidy desk, pick up nerf gun bullets and find a safe place for them. I don't see big differences between my girls and my boy as far as all this is concerned - we have the same expectations of all three of them.

I think lots of women who think their partners are capable are probably subconsciously unaware of how they facilitate them though, for example their partner may well clean and cook and do specific tasks for the kids, but I'd bet any money the woman has to tell them to do it first, or tell them where the kids clothes are etc etc

You'd lose that bet with me. Dh just gets on with stuff that needs doing just the same as I do. Always has. Our ds is an adult now and equally capable of running a house.

We gave ds responsibilities from quite a young age. For example, he would make his own packed lunch for school from about the age of 7 and clear up after himself. Little things that give them a sense of accomplishment are really good for their confidence. Feeling capable is a great feeling.

By the age of 14 he had a part time job, and earned extra from us for things like painting the shed, gardening over the summer, that sort of thing. He could do a weekly shop for the whole family and cook for us too.

He's now at uni and has a job there during term time and another one here at home so he is pretty much self sufficient. And of course he can budget, plan his meals, shop, cook, clean and do his laundry because he's been doing it for years.

I think that parenting doesn't mean doing everything for them. It means teaching them to be capable so that they can become independent. The bonus is that it's really good for their self esteem so not only do you get older children that can do a lot around the house but also they are happy about it.

The thing is, as a guy I grew up with a strong mum, and was taught self-sufficiency, which was great obviously.

Sometimes I do think her strength almost... mislead me. I'm going to confess that when I first read mumsnet a few years ago it was the first time I'd really read about and therefore thought in depth about mental load. My mum just seemed to take everything in her stride, and I realised on some level I actually did believe that women were kinda.... super beings, that could just sort all this stuff out without breaking a sweat.

So yes, cooking, cleaning etc. - never saw that than less as 'half my responsibility' - but I guess on some level I believed that when it came to organising everything men were just inferior. We lacked the super-power.

I'm glad I read about it all before I met my girlfriend. I don't think I'd ever have been a candidate to move in with her and her two wonderful daughters if I hadn't had that notion removed.

That was a couple of years ago. Since they're not my daughters there's practical limitations to how much 'mental load' I can take responsibility for when it comes to them, but at least I have a better notion of what it 'costs' mentally and try and compensate by taking a greater share of other tasks.

it feels like an unspoken thing that I should attend to all the housework,

Well, if a partner suddenly dropped doing their 50% of the housework, just when I had a new baby to look after, I would, to say the least , not be impressed. Not would I just get on with it , as if housework had suddenly magically become my job.

Would you ever react like that at work? I certainly hope not. Time to have an open conversation to get the unspoken assumptions out into the light and agree a way forward.

Maternity leave is to look after a brand new child, that you have brought into the world, not to be a skivvy for someone who used to be an equal partner.

I can immediately think of three very tidy men who look after their spaces to a much higher degree than I can manage. They married relatively tidy types too and everything looks immaculate in their homes. One also prefers to do all the cooking.

Sadly my partner and I are both a bit hopeless at times, we definitely both have blindspots. My desire for weekly clean sheets and non wrinkled clothes are not shared by him. He washes the windows I can't bring myself to care about. Neither of us tidies our clutter very well. No doubt we would have annoyed each other early on if we had been fussy types.

My main aim is to teach the children to shop , cook and eat well. I do know my dh thinks that's a good goal but would see encouraging independence and buying a basic cookbook as a favoured solution.

DP does a lot of housework but usually badly

I think so long as you make sure they can do the basic life stuff then that's all you can do.

I think it's an issue with how we raise our daughters, not our sons.
We see mum doing all that stuff and see it as an expression of love and so we baby our boyfriends and husbands to show them we love them...so they stop thinking about what needs doing and slowly stop bothering and then begin to expect it.
We're also taught that a dirty home is a sign that women are unwell, incapable or eccentric but 'boys will be boys' with messy bachelor pads.

Most single men manage well enough although they tend to learn when at Uni which I don't understand. Make sure they can cook, clean and manage money and that it's just as much a mans responsibility.

The problem is pretty clear when you have women-dominated forum discussing “how can we fix this” and not on male-dominated forums. It’s not women’s fault (as a group) that this is how a large proportion of men behave, but it’s still seen as women’s responsibility to fix. I’ve never heard a whole load of men say “fathers need to teach their sons”. It’s not because they don’t understand or know how to look after themselves (for the majority). they just don’t want to

It’s not because they don’t understand or know how to look after themselves (for the majority). they just don’t want to

Exactly, and this was the point I was trying to make upthread. DH does these things despite his DF doing nothing round the house, because he wants to. He would be embarrassed to treat me like a skivvy.