What can we do to prevent our Sons growing up into a manchild? Or is it inevitable?

[HollidayArmadillo]

I literally do not know a single person in a relationship who doesn't agree that they have to basically coach the man through life
Has to be told very specifically and clearly how to do things and that things need doing in the first place, wants a parade every time they do something round the house
Are generally largely useless at housework and childcare
Shows zero initiative in this area of life whatsoever
And don't even get me started on the mental load

Every single woman I ever talk to has the same issues, and we see thread after thread on here about it

Why is this happening?? Why do we as a society accept it?
And most importantly what specifically can we do with our Sons now to prevent it happening in the future?

Or do you think no matter how capable they are the minute they move in with a woman and procreate that they will become a manchild as that's what society expects?

What SoyDora said on P1.

Of course there are men that are perfectly capable.
Of course it isn't inevitable boys will grow up incapable.

Your logic about the threads moaning about their partners - if extended across MN, means that no relationship is ever good, as all the relationship threads are moaning about the relationships, rather than the vast majority of people who are plodding along quite happily and have no reason to then post asking for advice / help..... etc. etc.

No, you are not making it up, but neither are those of us with partners and sons who are capable of living like independent adults.
It happens because women facilitate that attitude in their partners and sons, and put up with all manner of sexist and lazy nonsense, for a wide range of reasons. Then their daughters often follow suit.
It’s a mystery to me why women put up with it, but if it’s their choice and they are happy, then it’s not really my business.
I couldn’t love a man who was a man child. A fling, maybe but not a ltr.

There are many men who use learned incompetence and many women who facilitate them, blaming their mil as they do it. There are many couples who demonstrate The 50:50 Fallacy. There are also women who are controlling about the house and children, and exclude men from what they consider their areas of expertise. And it is a problem, because boys learn about being men from their fathers. So it's really up to men to model proper adult behaviour. And they frequently don't.

My ex was very much like this. Wasn't so much couldn't or didn't know how to, just lazy entitled man who thought he didn't have to bother doing stuff he didn't want to. There's things which I did because otherwise he wouldn't, I'm not going to let the car go uninsured, or not bother to mark the school play on the calendar, let the DCs miss out on swimming or whatever.

I did not want my DCs to turn out like that so I started them doing chores. Tough at first but once they got into the routine it became easy (they argue over who's turn it is to take the bin out). i realise that half the time it would be quicker and easier to do it myself but how would that help them? I don't want 50 year old DS back at my door when his wife's had enough of him.

I still carry all the mental load (including for ex). Not sure how to deal with that.

DH is perfectly capable and DS is heading the same way, my twin brothers, on the other hand, have been raised to expect everything done for them - I'm fairly sure neither have ever made so much as a cup of coffee!

Think some responses on here are being deliberately contrary to be honest. Yes, there are lots of boys/men who use their initiative and take care of chores etc themselves. But there are also a hell of a lot who either openly don’t think it’s their job or who require enormous amounts of prompting. The OPs question wasn’t “are all men lazy fuckers?”, it was “How do we prevent them being lazy fuckers?”.

I do wonder how much of this links in with another recent thread (which again people seemed to miss the point of) about parents tolerating boys being more violent/pushy/bullying/selfish/snatching toys/pushing smaller kids and girls out their way because “boys will be boys”. I think some parents’ and society’s in general acceptance of male children getting their own way encourages an entitled “Little Prince” mentality. There was a documentary “no more boys and girls” a while back that really demonstrated this - people assumed that the toy iron, kitchen, dolls etc were more enjoyed by baby girls and the toy gun, truck etc were more enjoyed by the baby boys....imagine their shock when “Alice” was actually a boy and “George” was actually a girl. We tell girls that their role is servitude and boys that their role is to demand and order.

It’s a funny thing though, as there is a bloody lot of learned helplessness. My DH lived alone for 15 years and presumably had to wash his own clothes in that time. Now the cheeky bugger on finding the washing basket full simply leaves his dirty clothes in a pile on the floor next to it. When I challenge him on this he’s all “well the basket was full”. When I suggest then that this is the time for him to put a load on he’s like “oh, I didn’t think of that, sorry”. Even the loveliest blokes (which he is, in spite of me being a battleaxe) are capable of slipping into complacent morons!

I'm mid-40's and would say that most of my friends DH's are pretty useless; all intelligent degree-educated couples. Very few seem to pull their weight. Equal relationships are the exception rather than the norm.

I think there's 2 things you can do to prevent this - call out your lazy man child - point out that it's his turn to do the dishwasher, that you shouldn't have to remind him. Every single time.

And train your children young; cleaning up after themselves, putting dishes away, laundry in machine.

OP, you'll hardly get a statistical sample by looking at a support network for women: obviously that is where people come to talk about their problems.

Yes, there are plenty of useless men. There are also ime plenty of men who are not useless, but those of us who are married to them/have been brought up by them don't usually feel the need to discuss their domestic habits online.

I think there is a lot in what Bertrand said about it being up to men to model good behaviour. And I am very aware that that is where dh gets his competent attitude from: his dad (a product of the pre-WW1 era) was never one for helplessness: he was a SAHD in the 60s and perfectly capable of running a household. I can only hope dh is passing it on to his son.

In the end I think you get what you settle for tbh.

I do have friends whose DH’s can’t independently manage the children or their homes but in lots of cases the women have contributed to that status quo. Eg pushing their husbands aside because they are changing nappies the “wrong” way.

I also see lots of complaining about useless men without much action to sort out the situation.

My DH wasn’t taught to cook, clean or do laundry by his parents but he learned pretty sharpish when we moved in together - it’s not rocket science.

If I go away for the weekend or on a business trip I don’t prepare meals, clothes or lists in advance - I just go. My DH can do everything up to and including pony tails.

At home there are things I usually do and things he usually does but we can both cope quite happily alone.

We’re teaching both our DS and DD to cook, clean and do laundry. The PILs are quietly appalled.

Well my husband isn’t like this in the slightest, presumably due to the upbringing he had from his own parents, so I’m hopeful that our sons being parented by a father who does his fair share will grow up the same.

So women are to blame for those men who are lazy? Because they didn’t teach their sons (what about the fathers?) and “allowed” their husbands to get away with it? Men still don’t have to take responsibility for their actions (or lack thereof) then...

Children learn by example. So if the adult male is a sexist wanker, and his female partner trots around doing all the necessary work either uncomplainingly or whinging, that’s what the children see as normal.
Mine grew up with a father who was a SAHP when they were younger, working ot from home. They saw us sharing household jobs according to preferences and abilities, and gritting our teeth and sharing the jobs we both hated. The children also took on chores as and when appropriate. Now we are an adult household, everyone pulls their weight, because that’s fair.
If you want change, you have to challenge the status quo.

I am female (in all senses of the word).
There are buckets of threads on MN where I identify with the supposed useless male. I have all his irritating habits, I don't give a damn about cleanliness, I don't see the 'mess', etc. I read & think "How obsessed these silly woman are with petty things! How very unfeminist or maybe just shallow that they see tidiness of their homes as core evidence of their self-worth!"

But you carry on with the gender role stereotypes. I know they make folk happy, like insisting it matters how often other people wash their bedsheets.

It’s not about washing bedsheets. It’s about the essential work of maintaining a family. And it’s about men thinking that work is beneath them and that women should mop up their piss and feed their children.
It’s also about men saying “Oh, she has ridiculously high standards- I just don’t care if the sheets are only changed once a week” while actually leaving their dirty pants on the living room floor and being outraged when there are no clean pants in their drawer.

Children learn by example. So if the adult male is a sexist wanker, and his female partner trots around doing all the necessary work either uncomplainingly or whinging, that’s what the children see as normal

Generally I agree with this. However FIL is a useless wanker (they’re both retired now but MIL still does 95% of the housework while FIL plays golf all day) ans DH has turned out to be a decent human being who recognises exactly what is needed to keep a house and family running and contributes his share. People can look at others and think ‘actually that’s not right/fair’. While I’m sure he thinks FIL has a lovely life he knows it’s not how life should work, and he respects me enough that he would never expect me to pick up all the slack.
We have two daughters and I know there’s no way he’d want them to be doing all the housework in the future while their partners swan off playing golf!

even men who were fully functioning adults before a relationship switch PDQ once there's a woman around

Much as I hate the habit of blaming the victim, I am sure this only works if the woman steps up to pick up the slack. It has never occurred to me to do this. I grew up doing v v little in a household where the men did very little, I learned that citing homework got me off most chores, i am a bit embarrassed to admit. You dint have to be male to be lazy. What I learned was that i didn't want to live like that. I wanted to do my fair share and not more than my fair share. I could never be attracted to a man who expected me to wait on him. Simples

“How do we prevent them being lazy fuckers?”.

By not facilitating them. By ending the relationship if they do not step up, more sensibly by adding 'functioning adult' to the criteria for potential partners.

My mother is now in her nineties and tends to repeat memories. One of her favourites is the first time she visited me and then DP in our new flat. After a while of chatting, DP jumped up, announced that he was hungry, said he was going to make and sandwich and looked around for any other takers.

My mother looked at me reproachfully and said, for goodness sake are you not going to make the boy a sandwich? Certainly not, why should I? . At tbe time she was honestly disappointed in me. Nowadays, she has come to see how unfair her family life had been, where the men and boys sat and the women and girls were expected to wait on them, even when they were all working full time, outside the home.

It's taken her til her nineties to understand the unfairness, i am so proud that she has got there.

Honestly I don't think there is any hope OP. My DH does 50% of the house work, cooks, looks after dc, etc. He does way more than all my friends partners. Even reads feminist books and we discuss them.

But yet he still takes no responsibility for so many things. He could never decide on his own what we should have for dinner. He puts all calls/messages from real estate agent, tradespeople, bank, etc, through to me. On holiday, he acts like I'm the tour guide. He can't be bothered to keep in touch with his parents. Yesterday he dressed the baby, then complained the baby wasn't dressed warmly enough . If this is how a "good man" acts, then yeah, there's no hope.

My dh is perfectly capable but grew up in a messy and chaotic house, with love and laughter, but cleaning was a big blitz once in a while rather than an ongoing process. I on the other hand was taught to do things as you go and not let stuff build up. So we have different attitudes to household stuff. We each have our own responsibilities which works to a point. It's my problem that I can't relax if the dishes haven't been done, dh doesn't have to pander to that. He prefers to do them later.

We have 3 sons and the most important thing I try to instil is personal responsibility, ie thinking for themselves what they need and planning ahead. If they need football kit washing they need to remember to put it in the correct place and let me know when they need it for etc. Its the thinking for everyone else which is the most exhausting thing.

But Thursdaydreaming he is not all men. DH is responsible for our meal planning. He is capable of dressing a baby according to the weather. He can deal with calls from tradespeople etc. He asks me the odd thing, just as I ask him the odd thing.

No, of course. But most men are like him or more often way worse.

Are you saying there is no issue in this world of men in general shirking domestic responsibility? No such thing as the mental load? No such thing as facilitated men? Men do an equal amount of the caring work in this world? Then why is there so much discussion and books written about it? For evidence, see every thread on mumsnet.

No of course I am not saying that. However you said Honestly I don't think there is any hope OP. Why not? Men do exist who aren’t like that, so why is there no hope?

A few men like that exist (I've never met any, nor has OP) but I'm sure they do.

But just because a few men like that exist, it doesn't mean it's not a massive issue that personally I feel will not be solved. If there is a solution, it ISN'T just saying NAMALT. It's in addressing why the majority of men ARE like that.

Because it’s an easier way to live, why would you want to change a system that benefits you? Most people are oblivious to their privilege, and if that complacency isn’t challenged, things stay the same.
It’s not exactly complicated thinking. Feminism happened because women advocated for it, sometimes emphatically. Not because men decided that equality should happen.

I will come back with more but one thing I HATE is men who say “ I’ve done X FOR YOU”! Aaaagh!

Omg I've been meaning to start this thread for ages. I'm a single parent with 3 sons. First off....always pull them up on their bullshit.