RISK you take with your children

[mylittleimps]

Xenia said: "Anything can be discussed. Start a risk thread. Namby pamby look after children all the time parents who don't let them go out alone, run in forests, ride horses and risk death damage their children hugely. ", she also said that the case of Madeleine McCann would not change her in as much she would still leave a similar age child alone and go out to dinner in similar circumstances. Xenia also said it was just the same as putting them to bed and going down stairs to have dinner.

i let my young children ride horses, play outside witha river at the bottom of the garden or at their grandparents with a lake. they have lived in a "construction site" since birth, i let them sleep on their fronts BUT i would never ever leave them alone and go out to dinnerb or even leave my rpoperty boundary. and it is not the same putting them to bed and going down stairs.

i believe now the McCanns have pubilically stated that the quilt will never leave them and the poor child is still missing this is a debate that should be had now as if some people can still say it's acceptable is worrying (to me) and I believe children are still at risk if this message is left unchecked

so where fdo you draw the line at risks wrt your children (we all know that as parents we have to take them)

I have to say that I am most amused that on all the threads that have contained some element of this debate, the first people to get aggressive and extremely defensive of their opinions are the ones who seem to think leaving young children alone is okay.

If it is so okay, what are you getting so defensive about? Is it possible that deep down you know there is something not quite right about it? Do you make up the 'anything could happen just while I turned my back to brush my teeth or sneeze or something' scenarios in order to try and justify your actions to yourself?

Just the fact that you are interested in having this debate about a decision that you are supposedly so confident in speaks volumes.

'fGS if a baby dies and they discover the mother places him/her on her front to sleep then she would be accused of neglect'

You really have bought into the mindless hysteria that our nanny state is currently inflicting on parents. There are choices, some are right for some people, not for others. I think you need to think outside your own little bubble for a minute

when i have had a doctor say i don't care about my unborn baby because i didn't want a scan (despite there being plenty of research that saying routine scanning is not necessary) and the HV giving me a lecture on how my baby is sleeping (despite being able to raise his head) then i think i can question how leaving a child alone in a different location is not neglect

everyone is making comments based on their own little bubble, it's what we base our opinions and decisons on, and by starting a thread to discuss that you are opening your mind to other's points of view.

it's not judgemental,

i do things differently to other people that i know, for instance i BF they bottlefed i have never passed judgement on them, they are close friends and i could have had a discusison about it as i feel strongly about it but i let them get on with it as it's their choice. but by putting that here i will no doubt be accused of passing judgement - but i'm not it's their life, the child will get the food it needs either way. but when a child is left alone it can suffer and iMHO needlessly

Rhubarb, you seem to be getting very upset about a few of these posts

The comment about your mother being very judgemental was quite telling, it rather sounds to me you don't like another opinion but your own

mylittleimps has put her point of view across very well and has taken a lot of stick which I don't think she has deserved

as NK4cdb4418X1128a277799 posted earlier there seems to be a lot of shouting from posters who are very confident in their choices, so why the aggression?

You are simply wrong to say that leaving a child alone is neglect.

In some situations it is; in others it isn't.

It is your hangup. And hangups are not a good basis for law.

Message withdrawn

It was pretty much predictable it would turn out nasty though.

Personally I wouldnt do this but its unfair to say that the McCanns neglected their children because plenty of people do this.

Pitchounette - think it's about the same thing

i did say that in my OP - I said this because it's acceptable for people to raise their eyebrows (as you have) at this but it appears not ok to say that leaving a child alone (not just somewhere else in the house or garden) is neglect as very young children need their parents for everything (or toddlers aspects of everything) children this age can be very independent but it doesn't mean it is in their best interests to be so

they don't understand the world and strange surroundings and can be easily frightened by a noise in the night and if they can't run into their parents room for reassurance that's neglect, if they are getting stressed because they need the toilet and they have made a mess that's neglect of their needs, if a younger sibling wakes and disturbs the pre-schooler and the pre-schooler feels the need to deal with it that is puting unfair pressure on the child and is neglect. if a fire breaks out the parents would have been said to have neglected the care of their children. look at the advice given from the NSPCC on very young children being left alone.

i earlier gave the example of if you are paying for child care and you see that person taking a break nipping out to a shop 200yards away you'd say that was neglecting their responsibility caring for your child. so why is not providing adequate cover by a parent not neglect of their responsibilities?

upset? not at all, difference of opinion make a discussion - i've just explained further the reasons behind why i think this risk is completely different as i do feel quite strongly about the difference this is from other risks parents take

For fear of being shot down in flames, Can I ask why not get a sitter rather than leave your dcs alone? I find it hard to understand what happened in Portugal as it seems so many other options were available, but it was not my call or my kids. Those parents will have a lifetime to think about it, and it goes without saying I want it to end with a little girl coming home safe and sound.

But I can honestly say my kids have never been left truely home alone.

Yes i have talked to my neighbour on the front drive, or popped in to a petrol station to pay for fuel. But actually go out knowing they are left alone. No way.

When my daughter started school, i also checked when swimming lesons started that all the people with the children, helping them get changed etc had CRB's carried out. To my horror the answer was NO. Not everyone had had them done, neither had all the people in the school. Now some my see this as panic parenting, but they are my children and i do what i see fit.

What you class as neglect is a hard one to answer. To some, it is acceptable, to others it is at best irresponsable at worst neglect.

But i don't think that is our call to make. I am sure no-one on here would do anything that was felt to de detremental to their children.

We all parent differently as the needs of all children differ greatly. I have my dds one falls - she bounces but her sister would break!

mylittleimps one assumes that a babysitter is not competent to make a judgement about whether to leave a child, but a parent is. It's really quite simple.

You otoh assume that no-one is competent to make that judgement adn therefore the state has to make it for us.

When you found out not everyone in school was CRB checked, did you withdraw your child from school until such time as you were reassured all CRB checks had been completed?

To me the word "neglect" suggests ongoing practices like consistently omitting to feed them properly or not washing them at all or never talking to them. Not a one off or even occasional act that might place them at some slight risk.

It got corrected very quickly. Not knowing agreat deal albout shcool systems i thought, (as her prescool checked everyone, i mean everyone) the school would. When the issue of the pool came up i thought to check about them. The pool employees were all checked. With regards to changing, i went when i could to help change and dry (she was only 4) or got a friend to look after her.

The school started to check everyone else as soon as i complained. I checked to see who was not cleared to work with children and it was a couple of class room asst and some parents who did reading with the children. We did look at removing her until all the checks were completed but I found out who worked with my dd and they had been crb'ed, so deceided that as all the checks were being carried out to leave her for there, but did keep checking to make sure that the checks were kept up with.

I actually do NOT believe it is a subjective decision, as someone said further down the thread, as to whether to leave very young children alone.
Before all this came up, I (and I suspect many others), believed it to be illegal to leave young children alone. It would certainly be very much frowned upon by social services if it was reported to them that a parent was leaving a young child completely alone.
Maybe, as in the case of seat belts, there is a case for legislation to enforce the fact if people really are unable to see for themselves the dangers. (It now seems inconceivable that people used to drive around with no restraints on their children in cars, but they certainly did and it took legislation to make them see sense). It is not a variable according to the individual child, because all very young children have the same needs of protection and are just as vulnerable.

The problem would be quantifying it and prooving it.

You would end up with a situation like the seat belts. The police in many counties have said they will not be checking child seats.

As i have already said, I would not do it and cannot understand why people don't get sitters or take children out with them.

But it does happen for varous reasons, do you class someone who pops out for a bottle of milk while baby is asleep in his cot the same as someone who goes out for dinner? After all they both left their children home alone?

Tiggiwinkle - very good point and very well made

if you're off your head on herion or drink your are incapable of looking after your child and it is deemed neglect so if you're not there and therefore not able to look after your dc how is that not neglect?

my best friend use to head up a team of social workers befire she had her dc3 and she says leaving your v young child alone was seen as neglect even for short periods...this is more in line with the NSPCC guidlines than comments on MN, perhaps it is wishful thinking on the part of people that do it that it's not.

in terms of the needs of young children i don't believe it's subjective in the slightest

Oh FGS.

I leave my two young children (8 and 5) in the house on their own about 3 times a week for about 3 minutes while I pop to the post box on the corner (about a 40 or 50 second walk). Sometimes the five year old or both of them will come with me, other times they will both go and post the letters for me while I wait at the gate for them.

When they are home alone for 3 minutes, they are in the TV room. They may fight, they may get electrocuted, they may wreck the furniture... but they don't.

When I cook dinner I often leave them by themselves watching TV in the very same home alone room for about half an hour at a time. They could do an awful lot more damage than when I go to the post. But for some reason, some of you think I ought to be prosecuted for leaving them for 3 minutes (sometimes 2 and a half) but not for 30.

Where is your logic, people? Or do you also think it should be made illegal to not be in the same room as a child for a certain amount of time?

The logic is taht you are in the same building and/or vicinity as they are. If they choke, set fire to the place, get shocked, fall off something, etc. you are there on scene in seconds as opposed to the 3 minutes it takes you to get from the post office to the house.

That's the 'logic' of not leaving your children unattending in an edifice that you then leave the environs of.

My kitchen went afire a couple of months back.

I had NO idea how fast fires like that can spread.

If I'd have been out of that flat and in another building for '3 minutes', there's a good chance my children could have been seriously injured.

Or even killed.

Is it really that hard to understand?

MY DTS are 3yo and no way will we leave them alone. Our decision. What others do is up to them.

However, I have no compunction in telling them to stop being naughty and according to some, that runs the risk of them developing low self esteem so I'm not perfect.

No, it takes me longer to get from the top of the house for example, to the bottom, than it takes from teh post box to the house, because I have to go down stairs and therefore go slower.

And also when I'm hanging my washing on the line, that's outside the house too - and again, further away than the postbox. Should I not hang my washing out on the line?

So the postbox is closer than your own garden.

In fact, the postbox is closer than one or the other level of your own house.

Mmmkay . . .

Why are you so desperate to NOT see the point GSS? I honestly do not know where you are coming from in this.

I too leave my children in a room while I cook dinner and that can take half an hour but personally I wouldn't leave them in the house alone for even a few minutes. I am not criticising those who do like has been said we all make our own risk assesments based on each individual situation.
For me the difference is that making dinner I am in the house, I don't leave them for the whole time I am cooking and I am able to hear them if anything happens. If DS hurt himself dd is not left to cope with it I am within earshot of anything that may happen.

DP once left dd alone asleep for literally 3 or 4 minutes because our neighbour directly opposite asked him to check the fitting of the new catflap and I was at the shops with a tiny new DS, he figured she was asleep he could see her bedroom window and right up our stairs from the house across the road. Personally if it had been me I would have waited until someone was home but at the same time I don't see he did anything wrong either he was no further away than the bottom of our garden and would have heard her if she had shouted. Did he neglect our dd??? I challenge anyone who thinks he did.

We wouldn't have gone to the same house for a meal and left them because the situation would have been totally different and we would have been out of sight and sound for longer periods.

I don't think this is something that is black and white TBH there is always a grey area too and I don't think anyone can say who is right or wrong. I have never yet left the children in a hotel room and gone downstairs but would never say never either it would depend on a lot of things.

And something else occured to me is that the McCanns cheecking so regularly could have been their downfall in some ways someone may have seen the regular half hourly trips and realised the children were alone and used that to their advantage slipping in straight after one visit and before the next. I think they were right to be checking of course but the regularity of it could have attracted attention and the realisation that there was no babysitter or listening service being used.