Suitable punishments for nearly 5 year ol

[Beccarollover]

Hi

Wonder if you can help...

I have made leaps and bounds with disciplining DD in the last year or so (you may remember the F*ing Fours thread).

Sometimes though, I struggle with what to take away/threaten her with....

For example at bedtime she quite often plays for time and keeps shouting me back in her room/makes up ailments etc and I find myself saying "Stop this or I'll...................." and I dont know what to say!! Ive learnt from experience not to say anything then not back it up so Im always careful not to just come out with something but would appreciate pointers on things that help motivate kids at times like this.

Sometimes I have said "Stop it or there will be no television tomorrow" and she will say "I dont care" then what???? Obviously I follow through the threat but it doesnt help me at that bedtime struggle.

Am I making sense?

List of your useful/effective punishments please

Does your DD slepp with her door open? We have a rule that if DD takes the p* with her bedtime requests we will shut the door (she can reach the handle though). TBH we have done this for so long that even the mention of shutting the door works a treat, to the extent that she even asks permission to use the loo!

If she's really not settling well would it be worth doing a starchart? Otherwise simply ignoring her might do the trick.

I have saved lots of arguing by letting the kids play for 10-15 mins in their room before they go to bed, is that an option, then you could then say well you wont get to play in here tommorow if you dont get into bed now, since ive been such a lovely mummy to let you stay up in the first place
Oh and it doesnt have to be 10-15 mins after her bedtime, you can sneakily put her up earlier and she will still feel shes gaining!

I just used the bedtime hassle as an example but yes they are good ideas - I think getting her up to her room a good 15 - 30 minutes earlier will mean I wont be as bothered about any lingering cuddles and chats - I'll schedule time for them :D

Generally though I always find myself stuck for what to threaten/do! There are no toys that she is supremely attached to that I could remove etc etc

Star charts motivate her for about a day but then she is not bothered - quote from her last time we did star chart

Mummy :"Come on or you wont get a star on your chart for this"
Megan : "Don't care"
Mummy : "You wont get a star and I will cross out your star from this morning for being silly"
Megan "It's ok, there is plenty of time to be good and get more stars"

could you do the starchart for just a day at a time and say that there has to be a star in every box to get the treat (e.g. fave pudding, bubbles in the bath,)?

DD has her story in bed which is a nice quiet time and she gets plenty of cuddles etc. as we read.

Also as her behaviour generally has improved so much would it be worth picking on your remaining gripes (e.g. bedtime) and sorting them out one at a time? might be less exhausting and require less threats! We're horribly strict (at least compared to most MNers!) but we rely on bribery and coercion rather than threats. DD likes to be rewarded (even just a tiny sticker does it for her) and we tend to make things conditional e.g. "well, if you don't get your teeth brushed now there won't be time to watch Peppa Pig" so she decides.

Sorry, rambling a lot and probably not helping much!

Hi, your dd sounds just like my ds2 Becca! My ds1 is 7 next week, and he will STILL do anything for a sticker ...?! Bizarre! Textbook rewards, praise, threats, etc. just work like a dream with him, and always have.

DS2 is much more self contained, and confident in himself that he's just not so bothered about stickers or rewards or punishments. Fortunately he is mostly pretty well behaved and easy-going, but I do wish he was easier to manipulate like his big brother!

I'll be watching this thread with interest.

I have a feeling that my daughter is "experience spoilt" she is not spoilt in that she doesnt get away with murder, I dont buy her lots of sweets or toys etc BUT for example - bubbles in the bath would be no incentive as I would as always by default put bubbles in her bath SO how do I take things away so that she can earn them again.

Im not making myself clear here am I.

I couldnt say to her do this and you can have lovely bubbles in your bath as she would think "What? Ive had lovely bubbles in my bath since the first bath I had so why should I do that" How can I get back to a situation where these things become worth working for again?

The other thing to bear in mind is that her Dad and I are seperated, she visits every week and is very spoilt while she is there - endless sweets, videos, toys, no bedtime or discipline. I think this has a big impact on the weight my threats hold. (what does it matter if Mummy says Im not allowed to watch my video - I was at my dads yesterday and watched 20 videos until late and ate lots of sweets and popcorn too) See what I mean?

I have a horrible, horrible, horrible confession here but recently we were doing a star chart and in a moment of sheer frustration I ripped it up - she was screaming like a banshee, crying, whingeing, throwing things etc because she couldnt get her own way I was trying to talk to her about the star chart and I just couldnt get through to her and she just wasnt in the slightest bit interested in a star - still feel terribly guilty and not sure how I should broach the star chart territory now.

Hi Becca, sorry that you are having problems with DD

Firstly is your relationship with xdp such that you can sit down and ask him to limit (not stop!) how much he is letting DD get away with there?

Secondly, can't give you advice on star charts as I don't use them. I know my kids don't look far enough in the future for them to be effective. When they are being a pain, I have to do something straight away. I have to say I send them to their room (or my room, or sit on the stairs at other peoples houses) If I have to I put them there myself. They don't stay there long, but it's normally enough to break whatever behaviour it was. I think alot of 'bad' behaviour is either not thinking, or its playing for attention, so doing the Time Out thing will work for both - it gives them time to calm down plus you aren't giving them attention. Does that make any sense?

With the bedtime thing, that definitely sounds like attention seeking. Answer her a few times, then tell her you are not coming back until the morning and STICK TO IT! She will get bored. Arguing with her just means you are up there with her, giving her attention which is what she wants.

Watch Little Angels......you will realise DD is not so bad, plus they use the time out/no attention stuff, so you can see it does work.

HTH!

Becca - I guess you are talking about motivation rather than punishments aren't you?! I remember the fours thread (your dd and my ds same age)and it's great she's so much improved - well done.

What about thinking up extra special treats to work towards rather than taking stuff away she takes for granted? What does she like to do? My DS is motivated by special outings, having a friend for tea, going to the cinema, even having coffee in town with me and browse round bookshop etc. I also say eg 'you've been so lovely and kind today - I'm really looking forward to doing xx on saturday with my lovely boy......' To be honest he's also sometimes motivated by making me happy and having a good day. I always make a point of saying to him when he's been lovely and how great it's been to be with him. Think that's important amongst all the bribes!

Making things into a race still works with him if I want to speed things up. Also 'if you don't do x we'll run out of time to do y'.

We still do counting to five if he's misbehaving eg if we have trouble at bedtime and we get to five he loses a story (he has three before bed). This hardly ever happens...

For 'punishments' we still do sitting on the stairs for big stuff (eg hitting sister)

One other thing....I have seen friends have good results with pennies - the child starts the day with five pennies and loses one everytime they misbehave. I've not tried this one myself.

Hope there's something here that helps.

Beccarollover - don't feel bad about the star chart episode; I think kids needs to see us go mad occasionally and realise they can push us too far. Have you read the day mum turned into a monster ?

I think if you do decide to do a star chart again, you would need to approach it with caution ... make it look very different; put it up somewhere else, etc.

As I say they work like a dream for ds1, but ds2 just can't be bothered with them. Actually he ripped up the last one I made for him, so I feel similarly about them right now.

What about pocket money? If she doesn't get it already, this might be a good time to introduce it. But linked to behaviour in some way. We go in ebbs and floes with pocket money - they haven't actually had any for ages, just because it takes quite a lot of energy to keep up the enthusiasm. I write it all down in a book, and they get a set amount 'grace', but then can earn bonuses for behaviour targets or chores. Also I don't buy them sweets or toys except at Christmas/birthdays, so if they want something they have to save up for it. (But do appreciate your situation with her dad does make this more complicated). Anyway worth a thought - my two are obsessed with money.

Am planning to reinstate pocket money this summer, linked with chores. Especially as the new Lego catalogue just arrived yesterday, and they were poring over it for hours. So I think the motivation is high!

Thanks guys

All good stuff - I have spent this afternoon (at work (!)) printing out a new star chart and Im going to be none specific with it - I think I try and make it too complex which is where it fails so Im just having a sheet with spaces in with either happy or sad faces. If she does something well a happy face and if she doesnt a sad face - if she gets more than 2 sad faces a day then [suggestions here please!!!!!] If she collects 15 throughout the week she gets to pick a nice treat.

What do you think????

Pocket money is another area that I fail to get her motivated with - when she visits her Dad she invariably comes home with a big bag of money (pennies, tuppence, fives and tens etc) also my Dad gives her £2 most times he sees her too!

IF THESE PEOPLE WOULD JUST STOP SPOILING HER I MIGHT GET SOMEWHERE!!!!!

What about stopping all treats/magazines/sweets and implementing pocket money and she gets taken to the shop on a Saturday with whatever money she has accumulated - 5p added for each smiley face? 5p taken away for each sad face?

Help with the logistics of these systems would be appreciated!!!

you have had some great advice becca. Dont know what to add but you sound a lovely mum and they do try and test you. the only 'sort of ' thing that works for mine is time -outs but ds is a real pain and I struggle too.

You sound like you are doing a wonderful job!

Becca-the idea about pocket money and saturday sweets sounds good. Could you ask your dad to stop giving her money or to give it to you and tell her that you'll be looking after it and she can have it on Sat if she's behaved? Think it might be worth talking to XP so there's some sort of consistency, ultimately he's going to get fed up/broke by the time she's 13 and asking for ever more expensive stuff!

could you make a list of clear targets for her e.g. tidy up toys first time I'm asked and just do a few at a time?

BTW, the only reason DD thinks bubbles are a treta is 'cos i'm a crap mum who doesn't think to buy them

For once Im actually posting about her and feeling chilled and its good feeling - a far cry from my plea's earlier on in the year when I felt really upset by it all - she is a good little girl and doing really well - I think she would be so much better and easier to predict if I could find the right thing for her - as the only problems we have these days are when I get it wrong.

Thanks for all the input so far - it has really helped alot (and passed an afternoon at work

Sorry, missed your message. Was away from my desk. Bit beyond me this one, the advice from everyone sounds great to me (should be printing this out and keeping it in a book for future reference).

If she gets money anyway, what about making the incentives things that only you can give her? May be letting her choose what she will wear if she's good, you choose if she's not. Allowing her to play with/brush/dress your hair, or wear a nice hair thingy from your collection. How about buying her something lovely to wear (she can choose it form the shop) that only good girls are allowed to wear.... IYSWIM.

BR

Becca - if you can get everyone on board to stop giving her lots of money, sweets, rewards, then I'm sure it will make it easier for you. I'm not sure it will be possible though. Good luck!

Personally I would be very hesitant about 'taking away money for a sad face'. My ds1 responds very well to rewards, but EXTREMELY negatively to removal of earned rewards. In his mindset this is unjust, and he simply cannot cope with the removal of a single sticker from a sticker chart.

I know this works for other people on here though. Someone recently described a yellow card -> red card
-> withdrawal of privilege system. (Possibly WWW?) It sounded fantastic, but for us a punishment-based system doesn't work as well as a reward-based system. (Though as mentioned earlier neither works particularly well for ds2)

I have spent all night making Meg a new chart.

I printed off a sheet with days of the weeks and blank faces then have made loads of individual happy faces and sad faces - laminated everything and even made a little envelope to hold smiley faces

BUT!!! does anyone have any bright ideas of what I use to stick the laminated faces to the laminated chart so that it can be reusable?!!? DOH

Howsa about velcro dots, stick them in aline on the sheet and then on the faces -- good idea , saves buying stickers like my sis does !!

buy them in John lewis or haberdashery dept

Anywhere online?

Bluetak - good luck .
I have just watched the super nanny programme and feel that I haven't done too bad in comparison .

I am quite impressed by the sound of your chart and am considering making one for dd. Although mostly when I am at the end of my tether with her it is because I am tired

Becca ...
Things have improved with my DS since I introduced a 'Three strikes and you're out' type approach.
I got this from a wonderful NZ book called "I love you, now go to your room" by Diane Levy, a family therapist:
ASK
TELL
ACT ...

So, and example,
Me: DS, please go and get dressed
DS: No/too tired/too hard/ignore

Then I would go right up to him and say quietly, "Go and get dressed"

If he still doesn't do it then I send him to his room. Sometimes I have to pick him up and take him there. I don't give a lecture ... I simply say, "You can come out when you are ready to do as I asked".

At the beginning he bounced out after 2 seconds and said he would get dressed and still wouldn't so without shouting or anything back he went.
And so on until he got dressed.
He soon worked out that he got nothing out of me until he did what he was asked.
It was bloody hard work NOT to scream and shout at him but I have definitely got results from this method. Now I just have to say "Go to your room until you can get dressed/tidy your toys etc" and he will back down immediately. We even have times now when he will do as he is asked straight away ...
The theory behind this is not a punishment but a chance for the child to take responsibility ... they get removed from the action and get nothing out of the parent until they work out that if they do whatever then they can get on and do what they want ...
I am rushing this post as I have to go out and I haven't read everyone elses replies but I will come back and post more later ...
HTH a bit ...
G xxx

Just quickly about charts ...
Diane Levy (same woman from below) says that if you have a chart for lots of things it gets too much for the child. She advises to focus on ONE aspect at a time ...
So at the moment we have a sticker chart for staying in bed at night ... it is a face and certain points are numbers ... each number is a night. Every night he sleeps through he gets a sticker on that number ... after 2 nights he got to go to the movies with his dad, after 7 he got a small toy he wanted, we are now working to 14 and he will go to Crazy Golf with his dad and after 21 he will get a kite. 21 days will apparently create a habit ...

agree with ghosty that star charts seem to work for very specific things. Just "being good" is too vague and difficult for you to be consistent about. But going to bed without making a fuss is something they understand. Also have read that taking away earned stars is confusing and seems very unjust, and lessens the incentive to earn them.

Agree that her father cannot spoil her like this - it's not good for anyone - including him. He'll be wrapped around her finger.

sounds like things are going ok. And don't dwell on the ripping up teh star chart thing. We've all done stuff like that (well, I have anyway)