Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling

[papillon]

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It's OK dinosaur, I saw your question as just that, and honest open question.....that is what Mumsnet is for!

Interestingly ds, who is NT but with lots of auti traits (he is right at the top on the 'normal' range in that online test), is much easier to cope with than dd, and responds to diversion tactics much better than she ever has. In some ways he isn't driven to 'press to test' in the way that she is. We do use lots of other ways to 'dicipline' dd, but there are times when she is so totaly out of control that only the threat of a smack seems to pull her out of it. Her tantrums are so extreem she sometimes looks as if she is having a fit. Thankfully I haven't needed to follow up in ages and things are improving.

I'm with MI. I hated being smacked, can remember it from very small and the absolute humilation and unfairness of a bigger person smacking me because they had that physical advantage still stays with me. My parents weren't abusive or anything, we were smacked when we were very naughty. But I don't remember what on earth we'd done, just that I was outraged and distressed. And saw quite clearly how unfair it was that we were told hitting people was wrong and hitting younger or smaller children was despicable yet it was OK for adults to hit us. Ds is only 10 months so not an issue yet but I will never hit him as a punishment. Grab him if he's running away towards a busy road, yes, but 'put him over my knee' after the event, never. My mother still thinks smacking is OK and has said it's the only way you can get the message across to children who are too young to reason with. I think it's akin to the Victorian men who thought it was OK to beat disobedient wives.

Paps you are rational I know and I dont think anyone could ever doubt you having thought alot about many subjects. I have to say it is interesting that those who smack dont explain and have never been asked. My kids ask me why I get cross and why I am in a mood and why their behaviour is not acceptable. My ds8 questions everything I do and my dd9 would tell me that samcking is demeaning to me she even tells us off when we shout and says that this is not acceptable. When kids grow up smacking is not an option because they will tell you what they think of it and if you cant slap a teenager/adult why is it ok to slap a child?

I hope that didn't come across as 'I know what it is like for you because...', not how it was ment!

Ds does have a fair few traits, hand flapping, tip-toe walking, slow language skills, and obsessive rituals, but none that 'impinge' on our lives in any meaningful way, IYSWIM. It was worse when he was younger, and his nersery were a little worries, as was I. Ds is just easies as he isn't 'into' confrontation like dd. And he has never gone in for the meltdown tantrum. Dd's are quite something to see! Started when she was 1 and we would have almost one a day until she was 3.5! It is almost as if she *needs8 me to draw a line for her, to get her to calm down.....sounds like justification I know!

PS paps would like to see what a boiling eye looks like that would be green and frothy then?

Yes

I have a mother who lashes out in temper (if only rarely) and my childhood memories are made up of friends being smacked and their parents were definitely lashing out too. At the risk of causing offence i see smacking as a lazy way of disciplining a child. for example in a shoe shop at the w/e dad with boy aged under 2. Little boy starts running around, screeching. Father (after a few minutes)"stop that or I'll give you a smack". Child continues, father still sat on his backside. next time child approaches dad he gets an almighty wallop on the leg. Child goes into meltdown. Now, the dad had a pushchair, he could have got off his bum, caught the little boy on the next circuit and strapped him in, then explained. The screams from being strapped in the buggy would probably have been much the same as the screams from the smack.

dinosaur, DD is 3.3 and completely NT. Even if I was willing to smack he wouldn't stand for it. DH was ranting at me in the kitchen and she came and said "daddy, we do not shout in this house. Do you need to go to your room for a quiet think?"

just looked in the dictionary cause tap has been causing me slight confusion

To strike gently with a light blow or blows: I tapped you on the shoulder to get your attention.

Just wondered what you all meant by the phrase "taps" when does it become a smack then?

Sorry if this is draging things off topic, but I belive, as Jimjams has often said that we are all on the continuum...Dh walks on tip toes, is mildly obsessive, has to be spoken to using very direct (blunt) language, as he fails to understand nuances in spoken language. All his brothers are the same. Ds is a little further down the line, any further and he would have problems, I think. I wouldn't be surprised if he needs 'school action' level intervention when he starts full time school. It gives me a tint, tiny insight into what asd must mean for families.

The 'taps' I have given were like that, a tap in the bottom, that signals that behaviour had gone beyond acceptable levels.

I agree that many people do use smaking in a 'lazy' way, that gives children mixed messages. I have seen the same thing done with other forms of dicipline, the weary 'Don't do that darling' reapeated as nausiam to no effect. That also gives a mixed message to the child who then continues the same bad behaviour. Poor dicipline is poor dicipline, whatever the means used.

Continuety, consistancy and context are all.

I have smacked DS once or twice, and regret it totally. Because it made me ashamed, and because it is absolutely the wrong tactic for helping him gain understanding, respect, or learn 'rules'. Since he was tiny, he has been determined and fearless. He fights any form of containment, and does his best to circumvent any form of constraint. When I smacked him, he smacked me straight back, furiously and much harder than I smacked him. So what would be the answer to that? Escalation? 'Breaking his spirit'? When I have introduced strategies such as 'if you do that again, I'll take it away' it worked 3 times, and then he cottoned on to doing whatever he was doing joyously and frantically for a few seconds while I made my way over to remove offending object. If I put him outside the room for a short while, he cheerfully goes and has a whale of a time doing something else. At the moment, when embarking on something he thinks is probably off limits, he cheekily asks 'Mummy, are you going to say ONE...TWO...THREE'.
BUT on the whole, though Lively, he is very well behaved. He loves learning 'good manners', and 'being kind', and understands about not harming other people. He grasps positive messages, such as 'we always paint on paper, keep the paint on the paper', and adopts it bossily as a principle with his friends. I have to learn my parenting from his positive responses - and I just don't see a place or necessity to smack.

The big hangover from my being smacked as a child is that to this day I am scared of my mother. I know she isn't going to smack me now but there is just something in the air which I cannot rid myself of. Like others, I can recall the shame of being smacked but have no memory of why, at all. I acknowledge that my mother's discipline was nowhere near abuse and I'm sure she would say it was administered fairly. Yet it has still had a negative effect on me. I dare say it would have been so much water off a duck's back to other children. Problem is, we can't tell in advance what long-term effect it will have on our child.

Blu I totally agree with you my three are all like that and any time I ever smacked it has made me feel ashamed of myself. Have to say it was only once or twice when I was desperate mum on her own and mainly because I didnt know what else to do so it reflected my inability to think of creative ways to solve a problem and my frustration.

The "taps" I have given ds are as hmb says, just that - to get his attention. They don't hurt him - or at most a very slight sting (in the same way that you might "smack" a friend's hand, who was trying to steal your last Rolo! ) - but enough for him to know that he has done something wrong - or that what he was about to do was unacceptable or dangerous. It is also NEVER done after the event. That WOULD be abuse - as the whole point is to equate cause and effect.

In my case, the reason why ds has never asked or needed explained about smacking is that since he has begun communicating properly, (he only really started talking about 4 months ago) it has never been necessary. All the alternative methods have been sufficient.

However, if he were ever in the kitcehn with me and either tried to turn on the gas hobs, or tried to reach towards a gas hob that was on, and, say, I had a boling kettle in one hand, I would have no hesitation in smacking away the offending hand with my "free" hand. He would probably cry - but I would then immediately explain that waht he had done was dangerous and why he musn't do it again. I AM teaching him those lessons now - avoidance of such a sitation is obviously the best approach - but I have tried to imagine a scenario in which I might still smack him.

There has been discussion about why it is accpatable for children but not for adults and some people have pointed out that not all things are suitable for all ages. I have on occasion had to walk around shops - or across car parks - holding ds' hand in a vice-like grip to stop him running away. He will be wailing that it hurts him - but will attempt to run away if I loosen it. Such a grip would not be acceptable to an adult. However, an adult has a sense of danger and is also (in most cases!) responsible for their own actions and safety. A child has no such concept - and we, as their parents - have a responsibility to keep them safe from danger.

I do think that things change as they get older janz. Even my five year old would ask why I had hurt her now. I have never ever tapped/smacked or touched her as I have learnt so much after having three and know now that tapping is more about me than them. they respond so well to discussion and are interested in theories. We often have long chats about the meaning of words and how things work and I would hate to spoil my reflective life with my kids by resorting to methods which I do not consider a satisfactory way of resolving issues. I have always encouraged my kids to ask, question and discuss issues and I am sure that you do too but I know their reaction when they consider adults have misbehaved and they are my closest and best friends as well as my allies and biggest critics. I know that I would hate to look bad to them.

I agree that things change as they get older. And dd and I do have some very interesting discussions. But there are times when her temper sends her way beyond the relms of reason, and that is when we still resort to warning her about a smacked bottom. And in general that is all that it takes.

This is a really interesting thread. It is illegal to smack in Scotland, and there was such uproar from people when that came in. I do think it is old fashioned, and sometimes used as a lazy way of disciplining. I am still on the fence about whether sensible use of 'tapping' is ok - i.e. fingers in the socket etc.

From observing my sisters and brothers and how they discipline their kids, I would whole heartedly agree that consistency is the key. Mixed messages mean that the message is lost in the noise (or humiliation if a smack is involved). As it happens, we can't smack in Scotland. But I think that not being allowed is not going to automatically stop parents being bad, lazy, cruel etc as there are many more ways to be cruel and hurtful and unfair than a tap.

Anyone seen 'Little Angels' on the BBC. That programme mesmerizes me - and the transformation is astounding. And it is all to do with the parents' behaviour, and mainly consistency and boundaries.

It's not actually illegal to smack in Scotland. The change in the law meant that it is illegal to shake, use an implement or to strike the head - look here for details

I'm in Scotland too!

Thanks for the link janz it does reinforce the no smacking thing though adn also does say the effects can be damaging to self confidence and esteem. It also makes the case for using other forms of discipline. I have always thought of smacking/tapping as punishment rather than discipline anyway.

Thanks for the link Jan. It is really clear and gives good guidance on why smacking is not advisable.

I am interested to hear from those who use smacking as a form of discipline as to why. Not meaning those who b"tap" on accasion.