Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling

[papillon]

this

I'm with Bloss and hmb - it is all to do with definition.

Ds has had maybe half a dozen "taps" on his hand or bum in his 3.9 years - nothing that would hurt but enough to shock him to stop whatever he was doing. They happen so rarely, I'm not even sure when the last time was.

What upsets him far more is "time outs" when he is sent to sit on the stairs. They really do distress him, so we are careful about when to use them - and to give him a big hug afterwards.

But in general, such events are extremely rare - but which came first - the fact that he is a sunny, happy, generally well behaved child, or that we have been careful to nurture and discipline him within a strongly supportive, positive and loving environment?

PS .... and like hmb, I was smacked too when wee (in a similar way to ds now), but without the sulks from my mother, and I did extremely well academically and have a strong and loving relationship with my parents.

Why did you bother posting then Bloss? You come across heavy handed and as if your own opinion is the only one of value round here.

My example was of children who are / were subject to heavy handed smacking and then I went on to use myself as an example of someone who does not delight in the memory of being smacked as a child, but that it did not affect my schooling. Did you see that point being made? One I think that has been relfected here in several other posts.

So sorry if we are not all a coherent and rathionale as yourself!

Bloss, I thought that was EXACTLY the point Papillon was trying to make. The subjecy is emotive enough without people being made to feel as if their opinions aren't worthy of your debate!

Sorry, x posted with P.

Think there is probably a lot in the article such as fear causes low self esteem and this can affect all aspects of life but for any form of unfair or harsh punishment - I was never smacked I have never smacked dd It is an alien concept to me but psycological punishment and fear can have the same effects if carried out as way to maintain control and not done to solve probelms by explaining what is unacceptable behaviour . I really do not understand how anyone can physically harm their child unless the lightest of taps to protect them from danger ie fingers near plug sockets. JanZ it hink you have got it right when you say taps I got the impression the article was meaning more severe abuse

Even though they crossed - Thank you Blu - my eyeballs were just about boiling and so it was nice to see some support

OK, I'm going to weigh in now. Where on earth do you draw the line between 'mild smacks' and 'heavy handed punishment'? It isn't obvious, actually. Certainly not to a small child who is crying not just because of the pain but because they are being so humiliated by a bigger person using their size and greater strength to be violent against them. There is no definition of the 'reasonable chastisement' loophole which defines parental hitting as somehow different from hitting other (usually bigger) people - it's a mid-Victorian concept which hasn't been dropped even though it's now considered unacceptable for men to beat their wives.

I was never smacked 'hard' as a child. And I have a couple of excellent degrees. But I hated, absolutely hated, being smacked and I will not do it to my children.

MI, I absolutely agree with you re the whole principle - but I do suspect that the whole wraparound parenting and family environment, as well as the scale of violence involved - make a big or crucial difference to the potential longer term damage or lasting effects on children.

I definitely regret that I have smacked my children but I'm not the least bothered that I was smacked myself. Certainly I'm not emotionally affected. I used to goad my parents especially my dad who was very easy going until he would lose his temper and then I would shriek don't let daddy shout at me and either hide behind my mother or if i thought a smack was coming i would flee slam the door as many times as I dared and hare up the stairs to lock myself in the loo, mum or dad would be left trying to slap my legs as i escaped. All this usually started over being teased by my brother and sibling rivalry as my dad called it, specially at meal times. They did resort to putting a bamboo garden cane on the table too but i don't remember it being used also threatened with a wicker carpet beater and think my mum did try and wield that once but it was rather unsuccessful as difficult to manipulate. I did really well at school, much better than the 3 siblings but imo nothing either way to do with smacking.

However I am definitely in the not smacking camp as i believe it is always for parent rather than child benefit, but have done it myself. I think some of the other punishments of the mental cruelty kind can be as bad or worse. Can't think of any examples but I'm sure I've done some of those as well. I'm sure I've fallen well short of being a good or fair parent at times but I don't think the fact that I have 1 academic success and 2 less academic but also successes is related to how many times each has been smacked. If you deeply love your children I think it is quite hard to undermine their education by the odd smack. But it's quite telling that i wouldn't now like to ask them if they remember particular times that they were smacked or punished as it would upset me to know. Physical abuse is quite a different thing and tbh I think it's pretty easy to recognize where the boundary is, ie long before you're trying to work it out. However if you don't smack you don't have to work it out and you won't risk upsetting yourself and feeling guilty over the issue in years to come.

And I don't think it would be any surprise to know that cruel and excessive punishment of any sort would affect schooling and emotional health.

Dinosaur, TBH I have never had to explain myself. Rather odd that since dd is usualy the first person to ask questions.

To be honest I think that it comes down to the age difference, and I can see the arrows heading towards me as I write this! When dh is unreasonable I don't send him to his room, but I do to my children! With dh I have found that a tap (and it is just that!) is what she needs to give her an 'out' on behaviour that she doesn't want to contune.

An example from last week. She came home from school very grumpy, having had a mini tantrum before she lest for school (she is 7.5). She them proceedded to have an abosolute melt down tantrum because I wouldn't give her a biscuit 5 mins before her tea was ready. I explained the reason for this, but to no avail. She went upstairs and screamed at the top of her voice for over 45 minutes (you could hear her outside the house). I explained that she could be angry, but this was not reasonable behaviour. 15 minutes later it was still on going. I calmly said to her that at this point she had a choice. To stop behaving in this unacceptable way and have tea, or to continue and have a smack on the bottom, the choice was hers. Nothing else would have stopped her, and hasn't in the last 5 years! She stopped, immediatly, washed her face and came down for tea. All forgiven and forgotten.

Did I abuse her? Or did I give her a sound reason for stopping that saved face and helped her to control her emotions? I'd love to have reasoned with her, but it simply doesn't work. (ps I didn't smack her, and haven't for at least a year)

sorry dd not dh!!

I'm not sure if I explained myself well, and it does sound hypocrital when put down on Mumsnet! However there are all sorts of things that we expect of children that we don't of adults, eg having to wear school uniform, and there are numerous things that adults can do, drink, smoke, have sex etc that we forbid in children. We accept that there are differences in need and behaviour based on age as a matter of course.

We can , and do, distinguish 'intent' in all sorts of cases. For example it I grab hold of your arm, it is an asault, but we would accept that is reasonable if it was to prevent you greater harm.

I would argue that the threat I made to my dd was reasonable in that it stopped the harm and upset she was doing to herself by having a tantrum, the lesser of two evls?

I think to be fair of Bloss, she has argued her case at great length and very articulately (and FWIW, I happen to agree with her views) on many an occasion - and has got a lot of flak for it.

Like hmb, I have never had to justify the difference to ds. It is also something that I also never have to resort to now (in fact, I can't remember the last time I did), now that ds is old enough to reason with and to have a conversation with.

For me, it was a more useful tool when he was NOT talking - but either knew what he SHOULD be doing, or needed an absolute lesson never to do something again (the fingers in the socket is the example most often used, but I never actually had that scenario). And like Bloss, I made sure NEVER to tap ds as a release for my own anger.

I just don't get it - smacking that is!

Why can't we just hit anyone who is being unreasonable. My boss, my DH, my DM, my in-laws etc often wind me up as much as my children do, does that mean I should hit them until they are behaving more reasonably? If not them, why my children. If we are capable of negotiating around others why not put the time into negotiating around our children?

I rarely shout either - same reasoning, why shout at them when I think it would be highly offensive if someone shouted at me! Indeed if any one did I would walk away and say they need time out until they've sorted themselves out!

I've found that time on the bottom step really works for us. Don't have to even say very much about it these days, just say calmly - please go and sit on the step until you;ve thought about your behaviour and off they go.

Last week they were unbearable whilst out shopping so I banned use of their bikes for the weekend. Again no raised voices on my part - they wailed for a bit and tried to cojole me into changing my mind but I held firm. We talked about it afterwards and message seemed to have hit home.

TBH looking at some of my friends who do smack - on many occaisions this has been as a result of a loss of control on the parents part IMO. They've simply lost their temper and hit out as a result. So they get to thump their children for losing it, when they've lost it themselves - how on earth does that make any sense???

I understand that since you support Bloss and her views Janz you want to show her some support. But whilst being articulate Bloss you were very offensive and rude and not just towards me. Just because I or others may hold different opinions does not mean that we are being non rational! Listening to the opinions of others is an important, positive trait to have, one that was severely lacking on this occasion.

I do think it is worth being aware that ten or twenty years from now our children may well remember how we treated them as children and hold us to account for it. I am also someone who bitterly resented being smacked (again not beaten or hit with a cane or anything) and many years later, as an adult, I told my mother that I found it nearly unforgiveable. While we are fine now - I see a lot of her and she is wonderful with ds, it will always be there in our relationship and it is barrier to this very day. I bear this in mind when I deal with ds and am particularly careful to apologise to him if I have been unreasonable or shouted at him. Obviously not everyone feels the same but I am always aware it is a possibility that what I do now will be remembered and affect the way my ds feels about me when he is grown up.

I was smacked loads.
Love my parents to bits and don't resent it at all.

I was never smacked as a child and consquently it's just not something I have any experience of and would I would ever do.

should be "would never do"

we were smacked in moderation as kids ie controlled and pre known (that it was a punishment option for serious fouls) and never in anger (except my loopy bat mum who tried to drown us once by holding our heads under the bathwater) now see I remember that vividly and still detest her for it... but not the smacking really
as a parent I hardly ever have smacked, maybe only really when using the road and getting ds to obey really important rules that did not allow transgressions, but last time I smacked him would be 7 yrs ago, he is 10 now. I just asked him and he cannot remember being smacked at all.
Will try to avoid it with dd, I hate it, I'm not sure its the best way to deal with discipline, but then again as a parent, it is entirely within reason up to the individual, while we may think that anyone that does it differently to us is wrong, it's not always the case is it... I'd never rush to condemn or judge someone on that basis as a parent!!