Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling

[papillon]

this

Some great arguments on both sides. LOL at your comment Rhubard 'I AM right. But I just don't know what I'm right about yet'.

I don't think it's fair to say that parents like bloss smack because they can't think of any options - smacking is one of many options they use. I don't think you can make a good analogy between a care worker smacking a vulnerable adult with a parent giving a considered smack to their own child.

I do take the point raised by Aloha and scummymummy though - we don't know really how our grown up children will view us if we smack them. Do we want to take that risk? I do think the risk is there. But I don't think you can isolate smacking as the only discipline method or parenting decision that could leave scars. Children grow up resenting their parents for all sorts of reasons, from ignoring bullying to making them wear unfashionable shoes to school. My mum smacked me and it was water off a duck's back. But she also used to dig around inside my handbag when I was a teenager and I now have a horror of anyone doing the same.

I respect the fact that for some people all smacking and hitting is bad in whatever context. As others have said, if you feel it's bad you shouldn't do it. But IMO that doesn't make it a bad for everyone.

I have talked to my oldest son quite a lot about discipline. I smacked him occasionally and he said he dreaded being grounded or having a treat taken away much more - smacking was the easy option. But then, I do know at times a smack caught his instant attention, brought an immediate stop to something he was doing, when no other discipline worked as fast - and occasionally IME simple speed is the most important thing.

Talking to my son about discpline, I discovered we were at odds. What I assume works for him is not what he says works for him. I might fondly think that the shock of his normally laid back mummy slapping him would leave a deep impression. But no it apparently didn't. So one victory for PC mummydom. Slapping was not effective. And one victory for the slappers. Slapping did not leave him traumatised.

I also thought the behaviour book at school, the careful punishment and rewared systems his teacher and I put into place helped modify his behaviour. Not really, he says. The single most powerful thing was the threat of being sat with the infants. In PC mummy mode I find this humiliation distastful and old fashioned, but according to my son it worked and he didn't deeply resent it because it only happened after he had pushed the limits and other tactics had failed to stop him.

Sorry I am rambling, I am trying to say that IME my perception of how a punishment works can be extremely far removed from how my son sees it working.

In any pro and con debate on forms of discipline, I am going to bear this in mind - and sit on the fence mostly, I have now decided. I think it is futile for me alone to talk about the rights and wrongs of disciplining my children. It is only one side of the story. And I have no intention of letting my son post his views on this thread.

Bloss thank you and just to be clear you had argued that I had confused premise with conclusion. I was simply agreeing and saying yes it is my conclusion - it is not right to smack. THis is not unreasoned or unargued imo it is the end of my argument or my conclusion a) with myself and b) with others. As with paps I try as much as possible to go for peaceful solutions and this runs logically from smacking children to war. However having said this I live with the contradictions inherent in human life such as instinctual repsonses and my urge to protect my family. I know that if someone harmed my kids for example every urge within me would be to kill them, but I hope that I would try to resist. My sil is chilean and she fled from a brutal dictator. Instinct, love and protection of others would make me fight for my land and for freedom but I would have to overcome my belief that fighting which involves bloodshed is wrong. Yes I think that this is a higher order struggle and one which is not easy at any level.

I agree paps that this si some of what we are discussing in how to lead a good life but then again Aristotle did say that happiness was acheived through discussions like these. It is reasoning and intellect which makes us truly happy in his opinion. It is this which makes me say that smacking is wrong because I need to be able to live my belief in non violence by translating it with my friends and family into a practical life code.

I thought your example Bloss of the party was absolutely outstanding and certainly would love to use it with students in order to talk about assertiveness. I also would like to say that I am not sure that I am necessarily persuading you of anything the battle was won ages ago when you said that you would be in favour of discussing a ban in order to protect others who did not have quite such a rational approach as you. I would also like to make it clear that should I ever need any counsel in terms of firm clear discipline apart from Beety (of course) I would like to hear your opinion.

By the way why not let him tigermoth might be useful?

glitterfairy, it would improve his debating skills, for that I am sure. But no. mumsnet is mine!

Anyway, what ds perceives as good discpline and what really is working for him could be two different things. He might think it was the threat of sitting with the infants that caused him to stop in his tracks when it fact it really was the drip drip drip effect of the dailiy behaviour book. He might say now that smacking meant nothing to him, but will later decide that it did. Who knows?

The point I am making is whatever results I see from an action I have taken are only the results I see. The subject of my action may see things very differently. So as far as I am concerned, it is impossible to use my experience alone to debate if an action is 'wrong' or' right'.

Absolutely tigermoth
y kids tell me that smacking is a waste of time adn since they all argue incredibly well they also say it seems amazing to them that adults use one way of expressing themselves and act in another. Mine are dd5 ds8 and dd9 and all have a way of putting things very much their own, which I appreciate and enjoy.

I'm willing to tackle Bloss that drying dishes is not worth rewarding, or that it is part of good behaviour as a whole in children!

It can encourage the work ethic in children, paying them for extra jobs they do around the house, such as in this house, emptying dishwasher, putting rubbish out and hoovering, cleaning the car, feeding the cat etc (DS is 10)
Yes I would do these without whimpering... But this is maturity... I do a lot more besides.
To expect a child to do extra tasks without some incentive or encouragement is not always fair. This of course is ony my opinion...

Hmm. I won't be paying my kids for helping with household tasks. Otherwise, it justs adds to the culture of not doing anything unless there is something to be gained personally. As part of the household, older children should be contributing to the running of the household, IMHO. Otherwise, I'll start charging them for doing their washing, etc.

There are some tasks that should be done without question. totally agree with that. I do not expect to have to pay for every last thing, but every morning my son makes tea, clears the dishwashers, feeds the cat, for 25 per day. Included in this is loading the dishwasher after tea, emptying the bins and feeding the cat (again) and sweeping the kitchen floor or hoovering if baby is not in bed.

I think this is entirely reasonable.

He has to keep his room tidy, homework done and personal hygiene (daily shower, teeth etc)without mention or he forfeits right to earn the extra pocket money, or treats, such as PS 2 time or trips out with friends.
He is a sunny and obliging boy, with a belief and knowledge in value, worth and saving.
We never had any opportunity at this as kids and we are all terrible with money (my brothers and I) included, whereas friends brought up liek this were incredibly prudent and sensible... Hence my choice. It also takes away argument at times.

I am happy to reward my children for doing "extra" things sometimes, and it doesn't appear to cause problems. The smacking argument is very difficult indeed. Although I personally don't smack ( I have done it once with one of my 3 and was cross with myself about it), for me it is about reasoning and explanation and fairness. If I smack (this is my thought anyway) then not only is it (in my view) not necessary but I could be tempted not to explain - actions instead of words maybe. If I have to take a different route then reasonable explanation (which becomes extremely tedious particularly after the 4th - 5th time) is necessary and (hopefully) the children will pick that up as a way of understanding what to do (and not to do). I have a big age gap between the children, but have found personally that although this approach is very stressful on occasion (because it is timeconsuming), my relationship with my teenage son is (I hope!) mature. He is often (but not always!) helpful when i am really pushed. My children do have 5 minutes time out if they are being really difficult,but they don't seem to mind at all, provided that they think its fair. We all just do our best at the end of the day don't we?

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Stress Bloss - that was Wednesday That, I admit was me being flippant horror.

Good to be staunch about something ain´t it

At the risk of sounding sexist, I would think twice about rewarding my boys for doing any type of usual housework. I don't want my sons to grow up believing it is women's work and if they do it, it merits special treatment.

But have to admit piffle that your methods sound good as well - and the reasons for them. Your son does more regular daily housework without comment than mine does and 25p is not a huge reward.

My son does do things - he helps with cooking big meals, regularly makes breakfast, packed lunches and snacks for himself and his brother, goes to the local co op to with a shopping list, sometimes dresses his younger brother, tidies up his brother's toys as well as his own, but so far I get him to help in areas that appeal to him anyway. He gets praise but that's all. I know I'm taking the path of least resistance That needs to change, so I may well offer a small cash incentive if he does jobs he hates, but will think carefully before I do.

Bloss not sure we have understood each other. What I am saying is that smacking is wrong full stop. That is it. Which is to me a conclusion; the end of debate for me personally and I stress that. I know brilliant mums who give the odd slap/tap/smack and of course it is what method you use which works for you. One of my main beliefs is not to criticise others mothering skills until desperate, as I think it is the most difficult job in the world.

This discussion has been a matter of defining positions and understanding and clarifying points of view and mine is clear smacking is wrong in any circumstance. I do not however pass judgement on those who use smacking unless I observe extreme cases or unjustifiable use of smacking in which case that is abuse.

Again to clarify I make mistakes and have twice smacked my kids in circumstances which I am sure many mothers would, but on both occassions I felt that I had failed in meeting the high standards which I set for myself. I do this not only in mothering, but in striving to live by my beliefs and sometimes I let myself down and this makes me feel bad, although I do not slap myself too hard for it!

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Mears, purely on a philosophical level, going back to my case of the adult person with learning difficulties who still lives with their parents and runs into the road. The parent hasn't smacked before, but decides to give it a go, and slaps their adult child. After a few goes, it is quite effective. The adult child is now too frightened to go near the road. So, it works. It is administered by a loving parent. But is it morally OK? And if not, why not?

And if it's ok to smack, and not a bad thing, not harmful to chidren and just another form of discipline, why is it not ok for teachers and nursery workers to smack children?

DOH!!! Of course that wasn't for Mears, but Bloss. Sorry, very stupid this morning!

BTW Bloss, I am afraid to say that the sort of smacking described by Sophable and me is pretty common where I live - SE London. It's quite a deprived area in many ways and a pretty harsh environment for children. I find it hard to travel on public transport sometimes because the way children are treated upsets me.

You are right in some ways bloss but I have said why I think it is wrong. I do not believe it is morally right to hit anyone ever. I have also said that I think drawing a line between smacking, tapping, slapping, beating and hitting is not only difficult but is always a personal judgement and I for one am not prepared to leave it up to the majority to decide. I have said that children can often not speak for themselves and society needs to ensure they are treated with respect, dignity and equity and in this case the line should be drawn on smacking.

So not sure bloss what you want from me. I have tried to be fair and am not really seeking to persuade you as I feel that you have already conceeded that to protect others from abuse you would be prepared to look at a smacking ban. Apart from that you have persuaded me to strengthen my anti smacking views rather than convince me I am wrong as the idea of smacking in a cold calculated way rather than out of sheer frustration is an anathma to me.

I also believe that punishment is wrong and to punish is to intentionally cause fear and pain. I have no wish to cause my kids pain ever intentionally. That is not the relationship I want with them.

Hi folks - I have followed this thread with interest (and sometimes with frustration) but have so far steered clear of posting.

Although there have been some very reasoned arguments for smacking, I am in agreement with Glitterfairy and Aloha. Personally, I would never smack my son and feel that smacking is 'wrong'. This thread has really provoked a lot of real life discussion with me and DH - he was 'sitting on the fence' on this issue but now feels too that he will not smack DS, which I am very pleased about as the thought of someone smacking him makes me mad.

I also feel that as well as inflicting physical pain - ie smacking - causing emotional pain is also unnecessary. Maybe I have a very naive view of things, who knows. I have tried to be positive in the way I deal with DS - praising good behaviour and selectively ignoring undesirable behaviour. Yes, he is only young at the moment so who knows what the next few years will bring. I know, for me, it will not bring smacking - I could not do it and do not believe in it.

Someone mentioned earlier about children being afraid of parents which ever method you use....I would be mortified to think that DS would grow up afraid of me. At the risk on sounding like a wuss, I strongly believe that if you want your child to be respectful of others including their parents, then they need to be shown respect - and that includes from their parents. For me, a smack, or any other sort of 'humilation' as some one termed it earlier, does not show mutual respect.

I also agree that smacking should be banned due to the huge amount of the 'supermarket' type of smacking that I see regularly. Also the 'I have told you - stop hitting your brother' kind of smack. Many people on here say that they use smacking in a controlled way as part of a repetoire of behavioural strategies. But surely the kids like those I described above need some sort of protection? Does anyone agree? What other ways could this be done?

DH chatted to me about my job (teaching) and rightly pointed out that had I been older, I would have been expected to smack children in my class as punishment. To be honest, I doubt whether I would have chosen this career had that still been in place.

I would never smack/hurt someone else child, so why would I smack my own - who I love, adore and want to protect more than anything else in the world.

There are other ways to deal with things.

In my opinion.

popsycal couldn't agree more and along with mutual respect I would add trust and consistent and visible support. Stephen Covey talks of an emotional bank account and I like this analagy with deposits and withdrawals. A massive withdrawal imo is a smack. All of us deposit with our kids in terms of love and affection so why undermine our own efforts?

Again I agree that kids should not be afraid of parents. I think as they grow up mine are 9,8 and 5 they begin to discuss more and more and to explore their parents world views whilst coming up with their own. Last night we were discussing violence and hitting in the car. This is a distilled view of the conversation - I said I believe it is wrong to kill, wrong to go to war and wrong to hit. My kids said they too believed it was worng then we discussed hitting and they talked about when they had hit others but felt that my actions and the way I felt about hitting including refraining from hitting them meant they believed it to be wrong. They had been led by example and that is one of the reasons I will not smack them or how could I reason with them in this way?

And I have seen in the example of my stepdaughter who my dh doesn't punish or shout at or smack - he does have a very stern voice at times though! - and is beautifully behaved, extremely well mannered, and you could always take her anywhere. Dh did say he had a 'naughty step' in the hall when she was very young which he used about twice. Maybe we are very lucky that between us we have two very 'good' children, but I have known my stepdaughter from the age of six, and my son is nearly three, and I have never found a situation where I thought a smack was remotely appropriate, even if I thought smacking was OK.

Aloha my kids can be extremely naughty and very rebellious and difficult but still wouldnt dream of smacking them. Have to say that I like them to be rebels and sometimes even encourage a certain stoic grit to get their own way. They always behave well with other adults but know that they can do stuff with me they would not be allowed to do with otherrs my dh included.

Just as an aside, Glitterfairy, as it is the 60th aniversary of D day, is it always wrong to go to war? In my opinion the reasons for entering WW2, the liberation of Europe from Nazi tyrany is different to WW1. How many jews, communists, jehovahs witnesses, gypsies and gays would have been left in Europe if we had not landed in France 60 years ago?

That isn't to say my son does drive me mad at times. I'm certainly no saint. I have a pretty hot temper and get infuriated, but mainly by things that I could never justify smacking for - ie he dawdles hopelessly but never with malign intent. He doesn't come when I call him because he gets absorbed in what he is doing. The make me feel quite deranged, but he's not deliberately trying to make me cross or do harm, so I don't think punishment is appropriate.