Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling

[papillon]

this

Hmb always a difficult one imo. I said earlier in this thread that there are shades of grey in this argument as with my sil who is chilean. My general principle is that war is wrong and I think when they have happened we need to learn lessons about prevention, whihc we often dont seem able to.

I think with regards to ww2 there are many unanswered questions such as why we didnt allow many jews into the country when they fled from Hitler before and after the war? Why we allow Nazis to escape from justice to this day where the line is drawn in terms of genocide? For example we have allowed Rawanda why?

Certainly none of this is easy and I sometimes can comes across as very decided and opinionated when I am not sure so yes there are many ways in which there can be arguments for war or less peaceful methods but I would have to be convinced hmb.

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Just to add to that I also feel that the way we celebrate these anniversaries can reflect our lack of perception on a) the realities of war and b)our countries part in it. We get jingoistic and nationalistic in a way which I dislike intensly, mostly I feel sober reflection on reality and mistakes made is a better way but some of the celebratory stuff is revolting.

Just to get back to the matter in hand, some people would slap for this behaviour aloha and that is why I would be in favour of a smacking ban. pml at your being driven mad by the way as my eldest daughter ignores me alot and it makes me wuite deranged too. I have insight into her behaviour now though as she is a real introvert and takes ages to answer anything. As an extrovert I dont understand her and sometimes it is lack of understanding where they are coming from that causes my loss of temper. Once they explain it all seems perfectly reasonable (well nearly reasonable).

Doubtless it would have been better if we had avoided the war. But in the end would you have stood by when people were being gassed, or would you have done what you could to stop it? And remember that some of those who were gassed were German nationals, some who's only 'crime' was to have mental or physical disabilities. They were gassed and never had the chance to flee the country, what would you have done for them?

No bloss it is not morally right imo but instinct takes over that is why we had the earlier discussion about instinct versus higher order thinking. There are times when turing the other cheek is not governed by thinking we instincitvely lash out to protect ourselves and others. That is why I said that cold calculating smacking is worse imo as when I have the time to look at things this way I would hope that reason rather than instinct governed my behaviour.

Luckily hmb my role in war would always be healing the sick and soldiers. My grandfather was jewish and my dh works hard to uncover atrocities such as those perpetrated by the Nazis. I would never ever be a bystander hmb but I hope that I could not kill unless protecting my kids in an instinctual way. I have already said that this is diffcult. We still made peace with Stalin who also killed as many people as Hitler. The gas chambers were abhorent and evil but many stood by and even worked in them without taking any action to prevent it happening. Killing may not have been an option for them but I would have refused to be involved I hope.

I think however that it is entirely morally right to defend yourself - and if that means kicking a rapist in the balls, or sticking your fingers into the eyes of someone who is trying to bundle your kid into car, then I - and the law of the country - says it is OK.
I certainly don't think all hitting is wrong, but I do think self defence is a different issue.

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I don't think that it is celibratory, rather we are respecting the vast sacrifice that was made to liberate Europe from a murderous regeme. Old men are laying wreaths on the graves of friends who died.

Prayrs are being said for peace and forgivness asked, hardly jingoistic.

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Glitterfairy, we are fortunate that we have never been put into the position of having to fight to save the lives of our children. As the wife of a man of jewish decent I can say that this is only because people killed those who did run the gas camps.

I was happy to create a Pavlovian response to the road with my son, I used what I considered to be appropriate measures at the time, and smacking (albeit very minor on the whole scheme of things, if it is able to be graded that way, reading this thread it would appear not...)
He has always had fantastic traffic sense, when I was teaching him he was scatty, inattentive and would not listen. 2 months later he was knowledgeable and cautious to the point where he would not tricycle over driveways in the footpath walking into town, incase a car reversed out.
I for one consider this prefectly worthy.
I am not sure about dd, she is a different child, more thoughful and listens better, so it may not be necessary for her, this is the key isn;t it... Individuals, for instance when ds stole some whiteboard markers from school (long story being bullied, perfect child previous to this) I have made him type a letter apologising and accepting responsibility... His pocket money was withheld until he did the letter.
He said, why can't you just smack me the way other kids get disciplined...

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Bloss, I have already said that it is sheer instinct to protect adn use self defence not really a considered reaction so yes I have not said that this is wrong it is what I would do but instinct and not reason would guide me. I have also said earlier in the thread that if anyone hurt my kids I would want to kill them but this would be in cold blood and I would hope that reason would intervene here. I have a great belief in forgiveness and would hope that my tolerant and rational side could intervene but then I have thankfully never been in this situation so this is simply speculation.

Hmb my grandfather was jewish and my husband is still involved in work to expose Nazis as a journalist as I said. The people who ran the concentration camps largely went about their normal business following the war and justice was certainly not done at Nuremburg. We have an appaling record in this country of letting whole regiments of SS into the coutry without a word after the war some of whom have been exposed through journalists tracking them down and showing that they had beaten babies heads out against walls but were considered ok to live here.

Quite frankly i would hope that when I said I would not be a bystander you would have understood that to mean I would never let people be badly treated around me. I know this to be true as I am a whistle blower at the expenses of my sanity and home life in the NHS to prevent people being badly treated. If we are to be judged by our actions I have spent my whole career protecting those who could not protect themselves and ensuring jusitce for those without a voice so I know that if one of my neighbours was rushed off to a camp I would not stand by. how many of us would though and how many did?

Sorry about spelling lost it a bit there I meant hot blodd not cold as well OOhps

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No bloss I understood just wasnt clear. Sorry. yes I am saying that I would intervene. However am not sure that with my rational sense this would be the best course anyway. There have been mothers who intervened who lost their lives as did their kids. I would certainly give my life for my kids in any case but would this be best? Perhaps rather than defending them getting help asap would be best I dont know and would have to be int hat situation.

Stand back and let my rational self judge. Now that is a poser as usually my quick response is all isntinct but maybe if I paused and let my rational self judge the best course of action rather than rush in wildly that might be better who knows. My instinct might be to rush and get myself killed before my kids were adn that anyway I couldnt save them. If I stopped and thought maybe I could get help and prevent all of them being killed adn maybe screaming and attracting attention is the best move anyway. Instinct and it is quite rational to want to live and protect your own child/ren. Sometimes we act by instinct group socialisation to protect others too. Such as teachers who jump in front of kids in their class to be shot at or attacked. they do not attempt to attack back just to protect.

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It is like that old debating point. You have a gun and a bullet and you see Hitler before he came to power. Would you shoot?

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In the situation you describe, bloss I can't see there is any choice but to confront the attacker.
(assuming escape and getting help is impossible)

Mind you, there are different ways to confront, or course. Some use reason, some use instinct.

Me, I'd go for what I thought was the most effective.

I feel so without principles when I come on here!

Bloss same here with the hot taps and oven and heaters, but you can't let a kid get a little bit run over can you?

And in reality people were, on the whole, saved from concentration camps by people with guns, not people shouting for help, however well intentioned those people might have been. The help came with the Army. Damn shame it didn't come sooner. Group dynamics are all well and good but where the group is either a. in favour of the idea of genocide or b. so frightened by the regime that they go along with it anyway, shouting for help in Nazi Germany would just have got you shot and achived nothing for those being rounded up. To paraphrase, all it need for evil to suceed is for good men to do something ineffective.

Wow- how has this led onto intruders?!

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