Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling

[papillon]

this

Also, do you think that Biblical emphasis on obedience to God and God's own rather, um, stern line in punishments is one of the factors that makes smacking more acceptable to you than to us more, um, anarchic and disobedient atheists?

I have to agree that smacking, when used properly, probably does no more damage than other forms of punishment. The reason I can say this is that from my own personal experience as a child, I have several vivid memories of being punished by my mother and only one of them involves smacking.

I have one particular memory of being smacked by her, probably when I was about 5, and I had no idea why. I must've done something that she didn't like, but I had no clue what it was - so my shock/upset at being smacked for something that I didn't understand, has stayed with me. But I also have another memory of when she made me sit in the car while my brother and several other children played outside, and she would not let me get out. She was definitely angry with me, but again I have no idea what I did to incur the punishment - I just remember feeling very hurt by her treatment of me at the time. I also remember her being quite verbally critical/nasty to me at times when I didn't think it was warranted.

So what I am saying is, the times that I DID understand why I was being smacked, had no adverse effect on me, because I understood fully what I'd done wrong. I think it's only when a child doesn't understand what they've done and simply becomes the brunt of a parent's anger - in ANY form - that it does the most damage. I think it is just as damaging to isolate them/verbally attack them/lock them in their rooms/withdraw love & affection from them, as it is to smack them.

The child's understanding of the situation is of the utmost importance in my view, as is being shown love & acceptance by the parent following the punishment. I always try to explain to my son why I've disciplined him and make sure he knows I still love him anyway, no matter what he does.

yes, I have to say that for me Bloss is "the exception that proves the rule". During a 45 minute walk around the town centre at lunchtime yesterday I saw 5 kids being smacked/tapped/hit/whatever you want to call it. one of those was a baby (as in under 12 months)who scrammed her mum's face. Another was a pre-schooler who was told "I'll give you something to cry about" accompanied by a wallop round the head. The other 3 were bored kids in queues who were complaining, fiddling with things. Those are the episodes i think of, arguably (with the eception of the wallop round the head)not likely to "really" hurt or do lasting damage but IMHO horrible, LAZY and unnecessary. From waht you say bloss, i doubt you would have smacked in any of the situations but given that so many people do smack in this way, rather than "your" way I do think steps need to be taken to minimize and eliminate this sort of parenting. Given that we spend so much time on here complaing about other people's badly behaved brats this sort of discipline obviously isn't working and going back to the original article, this is an area of low educational achievement and big problems with truancy...

It's not half time consuming keeping up with this thread.

A couple of thing s occurred to me - if smacking is acceptable then would you be happy to allow someone else to smack your child or indeed smack another child who was visiting, or wish that your child could be smacked at school, clubs etc?

I'm also slightly confused/bemused/surprised that several people talk about smacking toddlers which I never would have done. If at all acceptable then I would have thought that it was 5 to 8 year olds who would be most likely to be smacked as anyone else seems too young or too old?

Also curious about the whole discipline idea. I find it much easier (or found children now older)to discipline rationally when I discover some bad behaviour has taken place earlier and I have to deal with it now. The hardest time to keep a cool head and make the punishment fit the crime is when it's an ongoing situation. I also found dd1 much more amenable to discipline than dd2 or ds. Dd2 just seemed to quickly catch on that if she was sufficiently stubborn then it was practically impossible for me to act especially once at secondary school and a 14 year old How do you ground them if they want to leave the house? I don't know how some people do it. (not anything to do with smacking as such)

Definitely with three children close together I think things are so volatile at times that conflict happens so much more often that discipline is inevitably much more difficult. Especially the "fair and reasonable" as half the time you have no idea why all hell has broken loose.

My ds is now 16 and he has never understood the carrot and stick (metaphorical) whether at home or in school. He just doesn't seem able to make the link actions=consequences and is very hard to discipline for that reason. He has a negligible grasp of I've chucked an empty tin out of the school bus window and unfortunately the school secretary is in the car behind and I will get into trouble and mum will be really upset and there will be a punishment (about 3 years ago). Just does not see it.

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Thanks Bloss dd is normally good when we go out but is nearing 4 and very independent so I am trying to find ways that mean we can still do stuff at the moment it is the threat (which will be carried out) of not having something at the end of the trip. DH has perfected a look which stops her wish I could master that one.

Neither have I.

Aloha I think the thing is (from experience) that smacking someone with learning difficulties (and defintiely Alzheier's) DOESN'T teach them not to do it again. So there is no point in doing it ever. Thinking of a friend who's dd has severe leanring difficulites- she wouldn't learn from a smack as her memeory is too poor.

We have just started using a behavioural approach with ds1. It is quite prescribed- there are very set ways of dealing with behaviour. Basically good behaviour is reinforced by being rewarded (instantly- has to be instant- at least initially) and bad behaviour leads to a neutral response.

I remember sitting outside a pub with my SIL (pre children - I may have been pregnant with ds1.) A little girl was playing on a wall and fell off- her mum went to the bar to get her a plaster. She cam back and her sister - who must have been about 3 started playing up "I want a plaster" All usual stuff. Then started screaming. The mum told her f she wasn't quiet then she would take her back to the car. She wasn't quiet- so off they went back to the car. The situation was handled perfectly as far as I was concerned. And SIL? Her comment? "what that child needs is a good smack". I've always remembered that as I was horrified- thought it was really inappropriate. And that knee-jerk- smacking for anything does worry me to be honest. I don't like it.

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How do they learn good behaviour from being smacked? How do the two things tally?

I can see that they wouldnt do it again because of the pain and not wanting the pain again but they havent actually "learnt" anything.

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Issymum- have you tried to keep her in her room rather than her bed? That's what we do with ds1. He understands that he has to stay in his room at bedtime. On occasions when he flouts this we use a stairgate (which I know many 3 year olds could climb over- dyspraxia has its uses )

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we just put her in if she is really tired I tend to stay with her she can be in her room but not out of it after a certain time dependent on dh's shift what we are doing etc.normally works also we egt her to tell us waht she would like to do in the morning

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secur I think you acted in a protective instintive way in that you slapped him to prevent an accident happenning this is different to slapping him purely for being naughty and you being frustrated,

just to be deliberately provocative- Issymum, IIRC Christopher Green advocates tieing the child to the bed with a dressing gown cord .....Not something I can imagine doing myself, not least because DD is described as a "mine of information" by school/childminder...

Hello
A headache has come calling today so I am not up to conversations regarding smacking today.
Just wanted to pop my head round the door though in case you thought I had desserted or something

The article I initially posted was for everyones interest and I have never been in a smacking debate nor read one on MN so it all abit above my head really, having a young baby and not alot of experience at discipline (but still I am learning lots). But it seems that the level of discipline used (physical or mental) is quite low amongst the posters on this thread. Therefore perhaps we should all be looking at the idological thread and volunteering to encourage awareness in parents against the potential harm any form abuse can cause their children.

I used to get the Investigate magazine when living in NZ and came across a web page with their name on it - it has some links re smacking if anyone is interested. Also more importantly imo a pamphlet on alternatives to smacking.

here

Bloss, I hope you put your ability to debate so articulately and thoughtfully to good use in your day job. I don't support your views, although I respect you carry out your chosen method of discipline according to a well argued premise.

And how much time does it take you to put your views forward on threads like this? Well done for level headed and thought provoking debate and Papillon for instigating. Very interesting.

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Aloha and the others who have described being badly affected by being smacked, I'm interested to know, was it literally just being smacked which led to a deterioration in the quality of your relationship with your parents? Was there anything else which contributed to your bad feelings now, or was the rest of your relationship more or less perfect, but ruined by the smacking? (Not trying to be provocative, just genuinely interested - I'm on the fence re this debate, and am constantly changing my mind about whether I'm pro or anti.)