Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling

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I very much think Donatella Versace should be given a good slapping after she said that she puts Creme De Mer (about £200 for a tiny pot) on her FEET. Stupid spoilt cow. Sorry, been seething about this for a day and dh doesn't understand

Aloha (now I have stopped spluttering with laughter) where do you come across such snippets??? (and yes of course she should)

Paris Hilton often looks like she just has been slapped! Not enough I reckon though!
Also every celebrity mum or mum-to-be who come across all knowing about children and think they have the right to give advice to other mums. They parp on about how fulfilling it all is and how they manage to work AND bring up the baby, neglecting of course to mention their chauffeurs, nannies, personal trainers, cooks, etc - THEY deserve a great big slapping!

And that bloody man who writes in the Observer...Tim Lott? Moaning on about the plight of poor old men who slave away at the servitude of SAHM's....

'in' the servitude, I mean

AND he's an actor. WORK??????

OOh this is getting good. Def give the rich and stupid a few slaps!

And people who put bags on seats on crowded trains. And park in P&T spaces. And slap their kids...oooops, that just slipped out, honest....

Maybe if all these people were smacked as kids then they wouldn't be so irritating?? (just trying to be controversial here!)

People who stand too close to you, ANYWHERE. Actually, I have another thread on this, in Other Subjects - Things that get up my nose!

Sorry- about to ruin the lighthearted tone and probably kill the thread!

I think there are worse things than smacking as described here by custy and bloss and others, I really do. But I'm not sure if I buy the argument that kids are fundamentally different from adults and that it's therefore okay to treat them differently, if necessary utilising punishments such as smacking and shouting in a good cause. Of course children need lots of guidance from parents and other adults, and clear messages and rules about how to keep safe and behave appropriately in various situations, together with knowledge that there will be consequences if they choose to disobey. I also agree that it's utterly ludicrous to pretend that kids and their parents have equal power. We don't- I'm in charge in my house because I'm the adult. And yes, I have an agenda- I want them to learn to be safe, behave as well as they can, learn about the way the world works to the best of their abilities, reflect well on their ace parents etc etc. I enforce the rules to this end. I have the power and my babies know it. They aren't thick- they know that they are little, need looking after and that they are thus at the mercy of the big mamma and dadda they've drawn in the parent lottery.

But is that so different from our lives as adults? Power hierarchies are a fact of adult life too- there are rules, there are bosses, there are people in charge. And there are also ways of using power respectfully that most people agree on. If my boss hit me when I failed to do my monthly monitoring forms I would be furious. If my housing officer had screamed at me because I was in rent arrears a few years ago I would probably have ended up evicted because I'd have been too upset to find a solution to the problem. I don't think either my boss or my housing officer would go down these routes for a moment. But that's not to say that I think it's ok to neglect (a hated) part of my job or not to pay my rent- I know that these people have power over me, I know what the rules are, I understand why the rules are there, I know there are consequences if I decide to break them. I also feel that my boss wants me to succeed at work and do the best job I can- both so that our organisation is providing a good service and because she cares about my professional development (or at least puts on a good act!). I believe that my housing officer doesn't want to put me and my family out on the street. But if these people had chosen to deliver their unwanted but necessary messages of doom via smacks and yelling, I have to say I might well have started doubting their basic benevolence because I would have felt really really shit.

If we as adults have certain reasonable expectations of how those in power should behave towards us, why should children be so different? I think the very least I owe my boys is to be very aware of how I'm using my power. For me that means smacks are off the agenda.

Ooh, Scummy, I do think that is a good post. Now I'll probably kill the thread
Anyway finished stupid work and off to bed at last. Hooray!

Message withdrawn

Thanks, aloha.

Bloss- I think the the argument that it's ok to smack people who aren't fully rational is dodgy... unless you think it's ok to smack adults with learning disabilities, depression, mental illness etc or people who are temporarily drunk, angry, upset, scatty, over-excited or in the throes of PMT.

Also, the more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that not many adults ARE fully rational- I feel heartily irrational for much of the time personally! Some children I meet are more rational and self restrained for more of the time than many of the adults I meet day to day, I reckon.

Bloss how can you smack someone who is smaller than you and not rational and therefore possible not aware of what they have done and it not be in anger or a power trip. From what I understand of your posts you using smacking when all else fails; therefore there must ba an element of anger to it. It also appears that you only smack because your mother did it. I just do not get how you can smack someone more vulnerable than you in any way but do it calmly seems even harder to relate to. I am interested to know as I have tried to understand but come up against a block against it

Bloss - how do you find the time to answer everyone?? I'd just say YOU'RE ALL WRONG AND I'M RIGHT and leave it at that, but you actually have personal messages for everyone! Neat!

By the way, I AM right. But I just don't know what I'm right about yet.

Rhubarb we all know that each of us individually is RIGHT for our own situations

I was at no point generalising, I was relaying what I witnessed living in NZ for 25 yrs and also my brother had a long relationship with maori girl and then subsequently with a Samoan girl we integrated a lot with their extended families, both gorgeous intelligent girls, both seriously beaten as kids and into adulthood, both accepted this is normal, both have gone on to beat their children with the same ethos.
I am not saying that ALL pacific island or Maori fmailies perpetuate violence or that it is a foundation of their culture, infact their strength of family (paradoxically it seems at times) would be the envy of many here. Children working to support parents and grandparents, all looking after the grandkids. This article simply drew parellels to the potential being damaged within children being beaten or physically reprimanded frequently. It would go to self esteem and confidence, which in turn link directly to how you see yourself and what value you place on yourself.
The only insight I have is that when I was assaulted by an exp I loked back and the whole relationship was based on his power over me, I fell for it, came out a sick, demoralised worthless woman. It can and will happen.
This goes beyond a smacking debate, I do ot think the article refers to the child who gets the occasional slap on the back of the legs or the hand as punishment.

Ps Agree re Paris Hilton, but there a remore slappables out there and mroe slappers too

Bloss, be fair, I didn't say that you have no appreciation of the damage you are doing your children, or anything like it. I did say that it is perfectly possible that in later life children who have been smacked turn into adults who may be less close to their parents and indeed, still strongly disapproving and even disliking of them, because they were hit as kids. You have to admit the possibility because it is how I feel, and Motherinferior and several others on this thread. You may well consider it such a remote possibility in your family and with your kids that it is irrelevant to you, but you cannot say it is totally impossible, when we say that in our experience it is entirely possible and, I think, rather a sad thing. I do not think that any person has ever looked back on their childhood and thought, if only my parents had smacked me more, I'd be far closer to them.
I know you love your kids passionately and don't beat them or cause them physical harm or anything like that, but I also suspect that you are extremely unusual simply because you don't hurt your kids, strike out in anger or resort to unfair or inappropriate smacking. I think 90% or more of people who smack their kids do at least one of the former. But regardless of this, for some of us, smacking or hitting or whatever you want to call it, is utterly anathema. And I also cannot see why, if it is OK to smack kids on the grounds of their lack of rationality, it's not also OK to, say, smack elderly people with Alzheimers or the mentally ill or disabled. After all, they might also learn useful lessons about not running into the road but most people would still say that it wasn't right.

FWIW, I think if we are talking about a tap on the leg to say, 'no, don't kick your sister', then I think you are probably right, and this won't bother your kids in the slightest in adult life. But as I said, I think you are very much the exception and not the rule when it comes to smacking. I think the reason we see so much of the 'bad' kind of smacking and not your 'good' kind, is because the bad kind is infinitly more prevalent.

Message withdrawn

In answer to your comments bloss ds has never done the things you said. I said earlier he was an only child until nearly 8 so i dont know if things would have been different hah he a sibling to argue with.

I can honestly say we've never had to "punish" him. It's been a lomng time since he was very little but i've always taken the distraction
/praise/removing approach and have never had him throw a toy at another child or poke anyone continuously.
Of course I dont know if his gentle nature is due to us not using violence- I cant see how hitting someone isnt violence so will use that term- or whether it's because the other parenting we'vedone has tsught him in a different way to behave appropriately.

Crossed posts ther.
But bloss I still dont understand how a smack can do all of that.

Gosh smacking threads always get very long don't they?

Not sure what my take on it is. I've written on here before about SIL's dh who asked whether we'd ever thought about giving ds1 "a good smack" (quite seriously) - and I was horrified. Still am- and I am very careful about letting ds1 near him now (also seem him shove ds1 with a gruff "go and play" (he' can't that's the point)). On the other hand I have seen my dad actually smack ds1- on the legs - quite hard. I went mad- but I also understood why he did it- at the time ds1 was pinching the hell out of ds2's face and would not let go. My dad does not have the ability to deal with ds1 very well- and what do you do when a child is hanging of his 2 year old brother's face?

I aso know the feeling of coming very close to smacking ds1- because you get to the stage where the behaviour is dreadful- but there is no way to explain it to him. I get cross and he laughs. It's incredibly frustrating. However I also know that smacking will not work for him, and that the world is far too confusing, so providing no one is in danger I walk away. And deal with it later. In this case there are better ways of dealing with bad behaviour but they need a lot of patience.

I have never come anywhere near smacking ds2. never had the need to. He's a typical 2 year old, but he can be reasoned with. I do think if you've never come close to feeling a need to smack then its because you happen to have a certain type of child.

of course there are people out there who smack without thinking about it, and people who beat their children, but I don't think anyone on this thread falls into that category at all.

Bloss thanks for getting back to me as I have said I really do not understand this but feel that you are considered in how you use your chosen form how do you feel about people who smack their children in a different way to you ie not a constructive way. I think your way is obviously working for your family but the only experience I have seen (friends of dh) had been to smack and not to explain why and the children seem confused as to whether they get a cuddle or a smack when shouted by their mum. I am sorry if you feel you have to defend yourself but you appear to be together and not at all like the examples of smacking I have seen which I feel is often for the wrong reason also justout of sheer curiosity how do discipline your children when you are out and about. This thread has really made me think about punishment and discipline

Hmm...but in many cases adults with severe learning difficulties or alzheimers are other people's particular responsibility, they are capable of doing things that are harmful to others and themselves and it is possible that if they were smacked for running into the road or shouting or hitting they might well decide not to do it anymore....but I think most people would still think it was wrong, don't you think? That's really my position on smacking. Yes, it might be effective in certain limited circumstances, but is it morally right? I say no, for the same reasons as it would be wrong to smack a learning disabled adult with the mental age of a child. I totally accept I won't change your mind and that you believe that the odd smack works for your family, but I wondered why you think the comparision is inappropriate?