Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling

[papillon]

this

if only similar debates on tv were ever as coherent.

Bloss great post as usual and lol at me being dumb. I think you are right that it my premise is my conclusion it is not right to smack. Have to say though that doesnt stop the occasional slip in the past but it has never felt right to me. My comparison is simply one of legality in some countries all sorts of things are legal which I consider wrong and yes I consider slapping/smacking wrong for kids on any occassion. there are of course differences of degrees but I think its hard to define what hard is and the difference between a tap and a slap and one persons tap may be anothers slap iyswim. I think it is a little like religion for some it is fundamental and anyone who does not join in being a muslim or christian is wrong and for others there are degrees and shades of faith.I find comparisons useful because one can disagree but also they shed some light on where the person is coming from. I use a lot of stories in my work to highlight opinion and of course sometimes get it wrong.

A couple of people have complained that they haven't heard a good explanation of why smacking is OK. My complaint: I asked on Wednesday why smacking is worse than other forms of punishment? Haven't seen an answer.

I hope that our nanny state doesn't ever impose a ban on smacking because it would be pointless. Child abusers will abuse their children whether or not smacking is allowed. And violence against children is already illegal. And honestly, if you can't differentiate between violence against children and a well placed smack then it's probably as well if you don't smack!

you know one of the most amazing things I saw was on the program they are doing following the lives of several toddlers all of whom were born in the year 2000. (Can't remember the name of the prog but it has that moustashioed prof chap on it)

One of the mums is severely physically disabled with no arms or legs. It was amazing how she dealt with her 2 and half year old boys tantrums. She said something like "I have no choice but to deal with him the way I do, talking to him, reasoning with him etc, I can't chase after him if he runs away and I can't smack him". Most interesting of all was that out of all of the children, he was the best behaved and actually did what she asked. He just seemed a lot calmer than the other toddlers. Only one example but it really made me think how would I cope if I were her because I spend half my time running after DS or physically taking things off him that he shouldn't have. If I had to rely on just my voice I would find it so difficult. It also was an amazing example of how physical punishment is not necessarily the most effective.

(BTW I was never smacked and would never smack DS but certainly do run after him and take things off him etc)

Why smacking seems worse to me than other forms of punishment...
If we smacked our eldest he would undoubtedly interpret it as ok to smack other people to get what he wants, to express his displeasure, etc. I don't know have a clue how I could explain to him why it could be ok for me to smack him but for him not to smack others. I don't have much views/feelings about smacking either way, Discordia (don't think I would advocate a ban, certainly), but I would rather my eldest used most any other way of expressing his feelings than hit us, other children or his baby sister.

Isn't all about context though?
I might be a well rounded, kind, caring parent that occasionlly uses smacking as a way of disciplining my child (as explained by Bloss) - can't see this is going to result in damaged child.
Alternatively I might use smacking as a lazy way to discipline, and resort to it constantly, when angry, whenever - this could well affect a child in later life.
I might on the other hand not smack but use things like time-outs as punishment but again, done in a loving caring environment where the child appreciates the context. Or I might not smack but I might use cruel psychological mind games to punish a child, ignoring them, leaving them in their room for hours etc
Context is all surely. I'm not sure something like this is as black and white as right or wrong.

Discordia I have heard that argument used against banning all sorts of things and it seems a very negative one. Almost like we will never stop things anyway so what the heck? I am sure that this is not the case but sometimes society needs to say no and the where does it stop question needs answering. I also think that the why smacking is worse than other types of punishmnet has been answered by some of us who dislike the idea of punishment at all. I do discipline my kids and am told they behave beautifully when out but can also be naughty as hell, I would hope not to punish them as in my view punishment is to inflict pain and I personally feel that that is not my role as their mum. I often make them laugh at their behaviour and feel that humour is a pretty potent and effective tool. I also ask them what they think should happen due to their behaviour and their ideas are far worse than smacking! Locking in the cellar was one idea of theirs obviously they watch too many tv programmes! :0 Jimjams I used the stairgate method of keeping in my dd9 when little until she got a pile of books and shouted "look mummy I have made steps!"

Discordia, one of my biggest problems is taht so many peple i see can't distinguish between a smack and abuse. For me the woman who walloped her pre-schooler round the head was abusing him. She didn't seem to have a problem with it and I'm sure any prosecution for "unreasonable chastisement" would fail. at the moment there is no explanation of what sort of physical punishment is ok. Men who have left scars on kids have got away with it because the "reasonable chastisement" loophole.

Not being blessed with aloha and Bloss's ability to express myself clearly in writing, I'm not going to bother trying to explain why I find a smack so much worse than other punishments. The best i can do is describe scenes I frequently witness when out and about and the distaste and pity they make me feel. Distaste because it simply isn't nice to see a lumbering great adult wallop a child and pity because if a parent does taht so thoughtlessly whilst out and about I wonder what they do at home.

exactly marialuisa - so it's context isn't it?

From this thread, I can see that a smack used by an in control parent can work in some circumstances with some children.

But I do object very strongly to parents who smack their children while their age is still counted in months. The baby or toddler then smacks parent in return and gets another smack?!

not sure if it is all context KR. plenty of people who smack, in what I believe to be a completely indefensible way ,(and i think bloss is with me on this!) probably have perfectly good relationships with their kids. Doesn't make the way they use physical punishment OK in my book though. jimJams SIL (sorry JimJams) sounds like the sort of person I'm thinking of. Instantly and unquestioningly smacks for any "bad" (or perhaps even quite understandable) behaviour.

You are right, mudda. A baby or very young toddler is not able to differentiate between right and wrong and cannot learn from a smack so smacking such tiny children cannot be right.

glitterfairy/marialuisa - my reason for not banning smacking is, as I said, that abusing children is already illegal. If people are really getting away with inflicting injuries then the existing law should be used. Somebody causing a child ABH will not be stopped by a law against smacking.

katierocket, I think you're right.

Anyway, agreeing with Katierocket (if she doesn't mind) - context is all, and a child's individual personality is part of that context. Smacking dd is unthinkable - she grasps being talked to, and her reaction would simply be utter heartbreak - but for ds learning seems to need a physical element (by which I don't of course just mean smacking). For instance, he has a scar (small now thank goodness) across the inside of his left-hand fingers, simply from needing to challenge the most carefully-given instructions about how to hold a sparkler last November. So now he has a sort of "muscle memory" to help him - about which I feel ambivalently very sad (most of my time with him is spent protecting him from his impulsive need to learn by doing, while still letting him learn - really a difficult balance, and I didn't catch him that time) and sort of thankful - he won't do it again. I feel that way now about running into farm machinery - from how he now talks about the incident I'm confident that it won't happen again.

No but my point is where does it start if people think it is ok to smack and partuclarly not as a reaction but in a thought out way where can the line be drawn? Is it up to the individual or what and if it is then who decides? Yes the court does adn ultimately that is a sanction but in my view there needs to be some protection for all those kids who get smacked to the point before it is illegal. I think it is like porn where do we draw the line and yes bloss we do need more evidence and proper use of methodology and research.

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the thing is that I would never personally smack and I hate it when I see children getting clobbered by lazy parents BUT parents like bloss are clearly loving and thoughtful and I can respect their choice because I can see that it is carried out in a controlled way.

Very interesting discussion. I don't smack on principle, but can understand why some people do in practice. A friend of mine who is pregnant told me how she smacked her son the other day. She normally doesn't (like me, is against it in general) but she was sitting on the loo when her 3 year old came in and just grabbed her belly and dug his nails in and pinched it so hard that she screamed and hit out at him. She explained that she didn't mean to hit him, but it was purely and simply a reflex action that she had no control over - instinct took over and afterwards she was really upset by it (more than her DS was). We discussed it (sparked by this thread actually) and wondered what the consensus would be on this; how are parents supposed to ignore a reflex action like this, and should they be expected to?

bloss - re: the woman I was mentioning, she did do everything herself - changed nappies with her teeth!

Discordia-hitting people around the head can cause severe injuries. As the law stands there is nothing to stop a parent hitting a child round the head on numerous occasions thus causing hearing damage or whatever. How can leaving scars ever be ok? How can hitting with a belt ever be OK? As the law stands parents can argue their way out of all these things.

bloss: 'no-one that I know of thinks that hitting itself is wrong' seems to be a fundamental of your argument. I feel strongly that hitting is wrong: if attacked I would push the attacker away and try and get away myself, but would certainly not be hitting him. Hitting is not scuffling in self defence. It is lashing out with hand or foot at someone. It is wrong. Doing it to children teaches them that it is ok. Hitting is violence I'm afraid: I find it absurd that you argue that it isn't, although there are degrees, as in everything. But that doesn't mean that hitting isn't a violent act, of course it is. I feel it's possible that sadly, you smack because you were smacked: and do a very good job of justifying it. Perhaps it is too hard for you to acknowledge that the mother that you obviously adore (and who lives with you? do I have that right?) made some parenting mistakes as we all do and that perhaps you are too. I find it incredible that a woman as obviously intelligent and loving as you can find no other parenting option than to hit your child. when your ds was trying to push dd away last night, did it occur to you to ask him why? and perhaps explore his feelings of jealousy and of wanting you to himself. perhaps he needs some time with you to himself. Point is, like I say, you are obviously a very loving parent and no doubt a good one, but I feel that resorting to smacking especially by someone like you is sad.

bloss- yep agree with everything you say about the woman in Sydney. I would be deligted if we had a law like that here.

As for Christopher Green, I'm sure it was in his book but an old edition (maybe 10 years ago?). Along the lines of tie the cord around their waist and then to the bed. No, it's not something I'm seriously advocating, just remember finding it very odd at the time. It is probably the reason I don't read parenting manuals.

Having worked (albeit volunatarily and a long time ago) with mentally handicapped teenagers (as they used to be called then), I can easily imagine that they would learn to modify their behaviour if they were given a good hard smack, much as an even quite a stupid dog would learn from being hit, not to do things. So I cannot see why it wouldn't work with, say, a young adult with learning difficulties (not autism, probably). So would it be right in that context? Even if it didn't cause them permanent damage? And if not, why is it OK for little kids?

I fully support a ban and feel confident it will be introduced one day. I would dearly love to be able to call the police to report the men and women I see knocking kids to the ground and slapping them around the head on a very regular basis. At the moment the vile things they do are legal, and I think they shouldn't be. People say it won't work, but it DOES work, and the countries where hitting kids is illegal have shown that. Levels of injuries in kids falls. And it sends out a powerful message to society. And if that means that some loving parents are forced to modify their methods of dealing with their children because of it, it doesn't seem such a big sacrifice to me.
I don't see why it is a nanny state to say you can't hit your children and more than it is to say that you have to educate them.

As a parent who has occasionally snapped and smacked under extreme provocation rather than being cool, calm and effective in disciplining children I still can't understand why a more capable and successful parent whose children have a clear understanding of good behaviour and are well behaved because that is how they've been brought up should need to have a smack as a sanction. Wouldn't they be equally well behaved without the sanction of smacking? Using all the remaining strengths of your parenting ability?

Thanks you bloss but not sure instinct is what this is it is belief. I believe that smacking a child is wrong full stop. It is my belief no-one needs to live it too but it would be great if everyone thought like me! Joke as it would be extremely boring!

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