Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling

[papillon]

this

Perhaps it wasnt intentional aloha and maybe we are over sensitive but they most certainly were patronising!

Tinker, it's not zero in Sweden but very, very low. Essentially, what Sweden did was ban smacking and promote a lot of support/tactics for parents instead.

And to repeat what I wrote earlier; 'banning' smacking would in fact mean removing the Victorian 'reasonable chastisement' loophole which differentiates between hitting children and hitting anyone else.

Papillon: I am not arguing that violence isn't common and distressing in Pacific island communities, but Piffles post read asif the friction between pacific island communities, and their subsequent economic disadvatage, is because their culture is inherently violent, rather than their displacement and economic disadvantage (in part at least as a result of the racism that I too witnessed quite widely in NZ)being the cause of violence.

Hmmm. The article tinker googled was written in Nebraska...see my comments about rural america below. And also high up in the Google list of organisations challenging the swedish success is the BNP.

No, NOT aligning MN Mums who incorporate smacking into their households with the BNP, but what is there in the idealogy of advocating on behalf of smacking that makes it attractive to the BNP?

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MI- Thought it couldn't be zero. Noticed the BNP link as well Blu.

Secur, I am sorry but am genuinely baffled as to the connection between shooting to kill and outlawing hitting children. Surely you could say the same about making it illegal to hit your wife?
I think it would be bloody fantastic if those kids I see every day being hit around the head just for walking down the street could call the police. God knows what happens to those poor souls at home.

I also don't get the bit about men not being able to approach children in the street. Of course they can thought they might not want to, but what legislation is responsible for that, in your view? Laws against the sexual abuse of children? But aren't they a good thing?

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Would a real-life test case focus anything? I smacked ds, who's 5, at the weekend.

We were on a country walk, several families, lots of children. Ds is excitable, strong and emotionally very bouncy (that's important). He started running away down a track (has done this LOTS in the past, has had no end of reasonable careful explainings about danger, time outs, hand-holdings until he promised he'd never do it again, etc. etc.) - towards where I could hear farm machinery. Other smaller children following. I called to him to stop, shouted, yelled, screamed, while running after him. Finally abandoned all the other children, raced after him, grabbed him and smacked. It wasn't a "tap". Apart from the panic, the reason was that I wanted above everything to fix the moment in his memory; for there to be something he might not bounce cheerily back from, having totally forgotten there was ever a problem (this is how he is); I'd even go so far as to say pain was part of the lesson. He might I suppose grow up with a grudge against me for having done that, but against the image of four small children under a harrow I can cope with that.

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Blu, don´t think Piffle meant their whole culture is based on violence. I had already written most of that last post and then saw your message so just wanted to make sure that I was not misunderstood as someone who thinks they all hit their children.

Alot of the racism in NZ upsets me too.

I was regularly smacked as a child. I don't remember specific incidents, except one time when my father stood at the bottom of the stairs, bellowed "get up those stairs" & we had to run fast before he could swipe us! My parents were great believers in control & we were terrified of them. Worse than smacking was The Look across a room, especially if we were out, & the lull as we got into the car/closed the front door knowing that the dressing-down was coming. Our more serious lapses were always d/w by a severe talking to, which was MUCH MUCH worse than the smack.

My mother also used to do the repetitive criticism thing, which is also far worse than a smack & stays with you well into adulthood. (What do I mean "used to"? She still does it!!! )

I smacked my children because I didn't know how else to deal with them. TBH, I'm not convinced now that smacking is a good thing, but at the time it worked. I wonder whether those real anti-smackers have particularly good children. I say this because I had a "friend" who was very virtuous because she didn't believe in smacking her perfect little girl who never put a foot wrong. When her second arrived & was a total whirlwind she rethought her views entirely.. With mine I regularly smacked DD & DS2, very rarely DS1, & didn't raise hand or voice to DS3 until he was 6 because he didn't need it! Helped that I didn't look after DS3 full-time because I'd gone back to work/uni, & FIL & nursery/playgroup had him most of the time.

What do those of you who don't ever smack do with a child of 2-3 years old who knows that we never go in the car without doing up our car seat straps, but also knows that we are running late & haven't got time to just all sit in the car because we have to get big sister to school, & keeps undoing them? (Not being funny, genuinely interested). Not an option to have a long-winded discussion, nor to give in & say "it doesn't matter", because in that situation it really does matter. Nor is it an option to say we'll stop the car & all sit here until you stop undoing it, which we used to do on endless other trips, or "we won't go then". (School not walking distance & no-one available for taking child to school/babysitting others).

My own children say they do not remember being smacked & I can't remember when they last were. (Now 18, 16, 14 & 12). It doesn't seem to have done them any harm. BUT, I still expect to be hit.... If I have a problem at work or a dispute with someone, I fully expect them to slap me. This is odd, because I am now 41 & have never been slapped as an adult- think I would have been 12/13 when last smacked? This is what makes me wonder about smacking now.

Having said that, if they ban smacking, the sort of bad, abusive parents you all refer to will use other equally damaging methods of punishment, so it really won't help. Verbal abuse can be much worse than a smack.

Well binkie you may have proved a point but possibly not the one you meant to!

At teh age of 5 if I shouted at my child to stop (in a serious shouting voice) they would stop straight away, no questions! This is because I very very rarely shout, therefore when I do shout, and I save it for dangerous situations they listen.

I think what you have demonstrated is that by bringing up your children with smacking as a tool for punishment they have learned nothing useful at all! They don't respect you any more and listen more carefully to your demands etc. they actually ignore you! Not a result in my book - not a result at all!!

Binkie
Grammar getting the better of me - didn't mean the don't respect you any more, absoutely, but incrementally more!

Tallulah - I would see the seatbelt thing as attention seeking and try to replace attention now with the promise of attention later. So something like Little Jimmy if you put your seat belt on quickly then we will have some spare time after dropping big sissie off at school to find some nice stones to add to your collection, collect some sticks/leaves, play with your lego, buid a tower, read a book...whatever their thing of the moment was! Or maybe, I'll tell daddy what a wonderful boy you were today and he will play football in the garden with you when he gets home (while I play on mumsnet of course)

I do tend to try and leave plenty time though to allow for the stresses of this sort!

mm soapbox should have said this hasn't happened before - I don't "bring them up with smacking as tool for punishment"

but you have made me think about escalation, and about saving a raised voice for emergencies only. Separate issue.

Tallulah, I wouldn't smack/punish DS in those circumstances because I don't think 2-3 year-olds DO have a sense of time, and act entirely in the moment. IMO it's one of the major contributing factors to the so-called terrible two's. DS is quite capable of getting sidetracked into all sorts of aggravating delaying activity, even when on our way to something he REALLY wants to do. So I would distract as Beety suggests, or get a device which goes over the harness catch and stops him undoing it.

Have to say in response Tallulah that I would never hit ymy 2 year old. I don't thinkt hat smacking would be an appropriate punishment at all. At 2 they are still more babies than anythign else, and really have little concept of time, what running late means, of consequences, etc. They are just learning. Instead I think you have to just be patient and guide them through actions, allowing them more time than you would a 5 or 6 year old. TBH if I just smacked DD I suspect the process of getting DD in the car would take longer - I would then have to deal with the aftermath of that - talking to her about it (has to be done there and then - no time concept otherwise), the crying and upset, my guilt, etc. OInstead I would simply firmly place in her car seat and fasten the buckles, regardless of her fidgeting or complaining/crying. Not saying it is an ideal way but smacking just isn't for me.

my children are diferent from yours and i will use smacking as a form of social control if i so wish. i do not think it is any more wrong than shouting at a child or giving them time outs. the make up, age and gender of my children, the social class, society in which my children live may al be different from yours and all are major factors. the form of a punishment is to punish so for the life of me cannot imagine my children being sent to their room to have a good time and to come back to be fully refreshed 3 gameboys later and apologise - defeats the object which is indeed to punish a child for a deed which i consider to be wrong or unacceptable in my house.

rather than banning smacking children in one very easy whimsicle strike which will leave many parents who are unable to cope even more confused. it would be better if compulsory parenting classes were introduced introducing all parents to techniques of dealing with children. equiping parents and putting money behind that notion would be far more effective imo. would any govt do this? i doubt it it wouldbe easier to ban smacking.

fwiw oliveoil, i agree with you my house is a do as i say house i have not the time in the day to explain to three children the actions of my every decision. "wash the pots" becuase i say so. " do your chores" becuase i say so " come to church" becuase i say so " put a clean shirt on and straighten your tie and stop looking like a skank" becuase i say so. however my children feel free to ask me anything and enquire about everything and i explain as best i can if they ask me nicely.

Custardo: I agree that supporting parents is an important and neglected area, (SureStart is a beginning, in some areas...). There is a feeling that parents are damned whatever they do...as afraid of producing 'spoilt brats' as of discussing things with HV's for fear of SS being invoked!